So if you have nothng to add on topic, why comment at all?
I don’t see how it’s gate keeping, it’s just the reality of any competitive playstyle, the idea is for your gameplay to win and the opposing players to lose. With AG it’s not a viable playstyle because ganking is shockingly overpowered so the best AG can hope for the vast majority of the time is getting in on concord kills that were going to happen anyway.
Unless were in a topic about an individual poster (which in itself would be against the rules) then comments which focus on criticising or attacking an individual poster are off topic.
I responded to a specific comment. That is why, you then engaged me in that response to which I have responded further… do you see how this works?
If Poster A makes an assertion that is on topic, Poster B can then challenge that assertion. Some ways to do this is citing poster A’s experience, previous comments that contradict that assertion, their behaviour that shows the comment is coming from a place of bias. It’s a very common tool of debate.
For example, you do this yourself when someone makes an assertion and you say that opinion doesn’t count because you are a ganker, or that it’s not worth clarifying a point because if you didn’t get it the first time your not capable and it’s not my job to educate. Both of these are attacks on the charachter or person, attempts to discredit them rather than tackle the actual comment. They aren’t off topic per say, just a debating tactic within the topic.
Responding so I don’t get accused of ignoring a paragraph and proving an unclear point… I get that you don’t see why it could be considered gate keeping, it’s fine that you don’t get it; it is after all opinion.
However I disagree with your assessment of AG and also that Ganking is shockingly over powered. While I realise you have engaged in high sec ganking and I haven’t, I have been “ganked” and got a kill out of it. There is plenty I can do when engaging in PVE to avoid ganking, defend myself etc, I don’t feel anymore overwhelmed by gankers than when someone turns up outside of high sec in a blinged out T3 with a billion isk pod. As someone who is on the other side of the ganking experience I don’t expect engagements to be fair.
It’s a common tool but it’s not a useful one. For a start noone here can claim to know anyone else’s experience so any claims about that are baseless. Everyone has some sort of bias, that’s unavoidable, but bias doesn’t in and of itself invalidate arguments.
In reality what happens in these threads is that someone makes a statement opposing ganking, then a particular group of people dogpile on that person attacking them directly until they stop posting, often basing their attacks around a common vector, usually a misrepresentation or outright lie. It’s got nothing to do with the actual debate.
I’m not sure I’ve ever claimed that someone’s opinion doesn’t count because they are a ganker though I’m certainly not going to claim I’ve never said so. It’s absolutely true that it’s not my job to educate the ignorant though. If someone believes something that is objectively false then rejects anyone telling them otherwise it’s not at all beneficial to me to spend my time trying to educate them.
And it’s fine if we disagree.
While this is true, it’s all down to avoidance which isn’t really counterplay, that’s a part of the PvE activity you are engaging in.
From the point that a gank starts you’re effectively a bystander in a race between the gankers and concord in which gankers pay a relatively low price for an almost guaranteed success. AGs are supposedly the active counter but history shows they are completely ineffective and almost always just end up tagging themselves on killmails rather than actually providing a counter.
Then why A use it and B make such a fuss about others using it?
I’ll help you here, you have, and you’ve done it to me.
That would be fine to say if you only used this tack for things that are objectively false. Much if not most of what we discuss is opinion on here. I’ve observed you use this on discussions based on differing opinions.
Again I’m not saying this is inherently wrong, it’s just a debating tactic, however there is a hypocrisy inherent in both using it and complaining about it. That is all I’m saying.
If your repsonse is just going to be I don’t believe I do this then let’s leave this where it lies and “agree to disagree” as the occasional response going “off topic” is inevitable but creating a whole seperate thread is probably too far.
While this is another opinion matter. I myself consider avoidance part of counter play. Part of the play is hunting, seeking if you will, so my part in that play is hiding.
The debate on wether it has counter play isn’t necessarily the lynchpin for wether it is over powered. Gankers might be able to blow up ships relatively cheaply and almost uncontested. However if you take that model for being overpowered then you could say any form of PVE with a low cost of entry and good pay out is over powered because they are uncontested and have an advantage over people not engaging in that play style. Do we nerf gas miners? Abyssal runners? Burner runners? Station traders?
Anti ganking is more than just getting on kill mails. That is a way to view it yes. However many people who play this game are role players. They aren’t necessarily getting on those kill mails to have a kill mail, they could be taking part in an activity that gives them an identity in new Eden. Only the AG themselves can tell you wether that one person they save with a scythe or a guardian on a gate made all the effort and loss worthwhile.
So then staying docked is counterplay? Not logging on is counterplay?
I would say that other things like that are overpowered, yes. And yes they should all be nerfed if they are out of balance - and importantly in many cases they have been nerfed. Gas was removed from highsec and trade tax was increased as were order modification fees. Ganking consistently avoids meaningful balance passes.
Functionally that’s all it is.
I’d spend more time on this response but it seems I’m getting mass flagged today so it’ll just get deleted anyway.
Not responding as we are at agree to disagree territory. Just saving this in quote form so I can remind ourselves of this if and when you chose to repeat that tack.
Engaging in a little reductio ad absurdum I see. It’s a fun debating tactic but let’s be real. There is a big difference between staying permanently docked/logged off and using active avoidance gameplay such as picking routes and systems shrewdly, not mining in the top belt, or running the top site in a system etc.
My understanding was neither of these balance changes came about because the activities were considered overpowered. They were incidental to broader changes made by CCP to do with scarcity and rebalancing industry.
Nothing in our discussion appears to have been flagged? It’s all been pretty on topic. The only flag I see is where I called someone on sexism and apparently that isn’t cricket in the forum.
If you reduce everything down to functionally then you are simplifying a problem or a situation to the extent that it’s not worth discussing. It’s a way to end a discussion for sure… personally I find most of the interesting things in this game require a little imagination.
My guy, please keep up with the slang of the day. You’re embarrassing yourself
Thankee
And yea, he is crying to daddy CCP to save him. He said so himself
LOL. I love when you try to push this lie
I wonder, with all your knowledge why wouldn’t you help AG? We live in a player driven universe after all don’t we?
It can be, yes. They can’t kill what they can’t find. However, since it is high sec, you can rarely get station camped by gankers. Please learn how to EVE kthx Its funny when you expose your own mis-knowledge tho
Because it is balanced You already refused to help the nublets. Why are you surprised?
I didn’t flag you btw And it ain’t sexism bruv. Although you not understanding the parlance of the day is just proving my point that none of Gen Z or below play EVE LOL.
I disagree. In both cases you are avoiding danger. Counterplay is when you play counters the opposing player, not just when you avoid being selected as a target by the other player in the first place.
They were targeted changes so I’m not sure how you’d consider them incidental.
Give it time. My notifications are pinging repeatedly. There is a daily limit on flags (or at least there usually is on discourse forums) though so maybe they’ll run out. It doesn’t matter if it’s actually off topic, because it’s all automated, it’ll just be someone flagging from multiple accounts.
Again, I disagree. I think when we’re talking about mechanics and balance then functionality is all that matters. Saying a heavily underpowered playstyle is fine just because some people fill in the time through RP isn’t healthy for the mechanics themselves.
You counter them by not being a target As you already admitted But then refused to tell the nublets what ships you use to not be targeted. I wonder why
I don’t get embarressed for a similar reason that I don’t get sarcasm.
Pretty sure I know who flagged me and I never thought it was you. You always struck me as more of the “Hesher” type of a skating term isn’t too dated for you.
I’m not sure what the obsession is with drawing generational boundaries. I’ve met gen z who behave like boomers and I’ve met boomers that are more open minded and in touch with the zeitgeist that gen z. People are people.
Bringing us back yo AG what do you feel about the importance of an imagination component in a game style?
We aren’t going to see eye to eye on your opinion of what counterplay is from the looks of it.
Because they were targeted at achieving a different goal, that they ‘nerfed’ a play style is incidental. I’m not aware of any announcement from CCP or comment in the patch notes where they said “high sec gas mining was over powered so we are removing it from high sec”. Incidentally you could argue that this was a nerf to ganking if you wanted to because they targeted and removed a source of ganking targets and sent them to low sec.
The sum of this discussion isn’t balance or mechanics. It’s just talking about how to make AG playstyle effective. You can add all sorts of metrics to how effective a playstyle is, including wether those that are doing it are having fun.
With the amount of fireworks you see at Jita undock I suspect there are people that do this but at what point would you be better of logging off and investing subscription fees in to some legos.
Again a cheeky little bit of reductio ad absurdum. If you have to rely on your imagination to the extent that you can’t even engage in the playstyle, just pretend to that is one thing. If you need a little imagination to make an otherwise dry playstyle interesting that is another.
Well this is problematic because “antigankers” are from the majority recruited or emerging from the victims of a gank. And these players then really come into this activity with sole purpose - to make gankers quit and to stop ganking.
Every topic is about ganking, some are masking this well though.
