Saying this with a straight face and no elaboration about what can be caught doing PvP activity (whether ganking, gate camping, ESS robbing, BLOPs dropping, sliding into FW Plexes, gas huffing hunting, WH camping, WH evicting, filamenting for content, etc), but bundling everything into one big overly-generalized black-and-white statement is undermining your credibility in this discussion.
Edit: I agree with Destiny, this is one of the top ten dumbest things said on the forum.
Only carebears claim that the PvE players will quit. The rest of us know that they are hopelessly addicted and will keep undocking.
The Prophet fears your logic isn’t logicing.
How can it be easier to catch people and kill people, yet less people are dying?
This smacks of someone who no longer lives in New Eden.
The Prophet wonders if you think people even gate camp much anymore besides a few systems.
This statement did indeed have the Prophet scratching their head.
Perhaps you missed it…
You do have microjump drives and removing cynos from non recons in your favor, but that’s only a segment of the overall pvp population.
The activity people are participating is largely irrelevant, other than maybe fw complexes, which removed the ability to stab your ship and the addition of ess as a game feature. (so another point in my favor.)
Furthermore, warping to zero has been in the game a lot longer than ess has.
You weren’t going to kill those ships years ago anyway unless you smart bombed them. The one thing I’ll give you here is warp nullification on haulers. (Which isn’t a point you even brought up, but I’ll do so on your behalf since I’m interested in honest discussion.)
Personally, I’m not a fan of how those have impacted the game, but it was always possible to warp to a safe and then log out. It’s not much different in terms of evasion. the highsec filaments, yes, those are absolutely a point toward your argument, but thankfully they’re seasonal.
Do you often make fake quotes? That’s not anywhere close to what I said.
It’s like you guys have the reading comprehension of a wet noodle.
Destiny was complaining about the lack of ship destruction, so apparently they’re not undocking as much as some people would like. Maybe you’re confusing carebears with bots. I know they’re pretty similar.
Less people in space.
For example, if there’s 100% change to catch someone, but there’s only 1 potential engagement… that’s less than if there’s 10 potential engagements but only 50% change to catch the target.
This isn’t hard guys.
They do, I’ve seen them. It’s practically snuffed’s m.o. It’s not something that overly bothers me, because I know how to get around them.
Yes, because pretty much everything you replied to me makes no sense. Whatever idea you are trying to convey from the inside of your head is not being expressed in a manner that is understandable.
Lancers are brand-new, “insta-lock” ships have been around forever, so those opposites plus your ramblings about ESS “being new” and warp to zero and mumbling about “being around forever” as all “points in your favor” is saying a lot but not communicating anything.
Whatever idea you’re trying to convey, isn’t making it out of your fingertips.
The idea that did successfully get conveyed is:
Which folds over the faintest of scrutiny, which was my point: you can go PvP-activity by PvP-activity, aka:
…and readily come up with numerous fits and piloting examples that show how safe a would-be-attackee really can make it hard to be caught by an aggressor with a bare minimum of planning and attention. If you can’t, then the next step is to undock and figure out how to do so for each of those activities, or come back here with your concrete experience attempting to hunt – which should show people here how truly easy it is.
Since it is so easy to catch people (hence why activity is down), I should see your Lancers, instalock Gnosis, and instalock T3Cs full of industrial kills in a long list that was easy to produce. Including BRs and DSTs. Is your killboard full of these easy kills already available?
What isn’t hard is totally inventing scenarios.
You have no evidence that making scram 1/2 as effective would lead to 10 times as many players. You’ve completely ignored the effect it would have on solo players being able to scram and kill suspects. In fact it would make the whole suspect thing meaningless as nobody’s going to set up a fleet just to catch some guy who’s suspect for 15 minutes.
As so often in Eve, people don’t really think about the consequences of their amazing plans.
Actually, Rail is smarter than all of us combined, and he also has way more experience than we do - which is how he knows he doesn’t have Dunning-Kruger disorder.
Ahh … that would be an issue of misunderstanding. I mean the people being caught, aren’t bothering to be in areas where they can be caught. It was Destiny that said the per capita destruction is down, I was just assuming the statistic stated was correct as I had no reason to doubt it.
Fair enough, it was a bit of a garbled exposition, in part because there were multiple participants in the conversation I was trying to respond to and blend them all into a single response so I wouldn’t have to repeat myself.
Ultimately the only new mechanic that has any relevance to this discussion is the lancers. I could throw relevant killboard results at you all day, but they wouldn’t actually tell you much because you can’t really tell how the targets were grabbed in the first place. And even if I link you hauler deaths, how are you going to compare them to what happened prior? Not to mention when are you comparing them to?
Not to mention that total amounts of deaths don’t actually paint the full picture because the issue is far more nuanced than that. (Server density, player skill, game events, player events, ect. all play a factor in w/e those total numbers are, and you need to understand how all that was put into effect in the specific situation in order to determine whether or not those numbers have any relevance to the topic we’re discussing.)
It’s true that insta-locking has been around for a while, but perhaps it’s just my impression that it’s become more prevalent in recent years due to lower server numbers (thus more people are using instalockers to catch travelers rather than having more useful mods for actual engagements.)
I suppose that might also be an affect of mjds; insta-locking gnosis campers feel safer doing so, because they can just jump away if someone tries to break the camp. You can’t even say mjd’s as a whole make players safer because they’re used both offensively and defensively (both the individual version and the boosh.) So… maybe safer for the insta-locking camper, but not overall for the game at large.
It’s called a hypothetical for the purposes of demonstrating a basic principal. The person I was responding to was having issues understanding basic math.
I assume this is in reference to the op? I don’t support the op’s proposal.
What I did do, is parse out the reason for what that op was after (an issue with camps,) and tossed out a counter proposal that would actually lesson the effectiveness of camps without destroying solo pvp.
Smarter than you maybe, Io did bring up some decent points however, so I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt.
Except more have come back.
It’s ok friend. The Prophet knows why you push the false narrative.
Oh so it isn’t a problem.
Thank you for admitting it.
Maybe there’s an overpopulation in hisec that is too well protected by the current mechanics, not getting involved in pvp either way, lol.
Lo and Behold, they have stacking penalties, as shown on https://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Stacking_penalties. But perhaps you meant something else than “ewar”.
Oh, like in ESI’s ?
Choke points are map features, not mechanistic features.
That only happens in certain parts of the game e.g. on npc stations, not on Upwell structures. Gate camps are pretty easy to break up, but rarely as a solo player…
filaments+ ? nah, too many “get out of jail free” cards in the game already. Also, a rework of jump fatigue is quite unlikely to be in the plans, let alone circumventing jump fatigue.
Some of my best experiences in the game involved gate camps with stealth bombers. Relaxing, chatting and socializing, waiting for the scouts in neighboring systems to report any incoming traffic, then adrenaline, the cloaky interdictor doing its thing on the gate, aligning, launching, warping out, and watch the stream of damage, and rejoice in a well executed attack and for surviving in our little glass cannons. Good times ! Nowadays few people have that kind of patience, or maybe there were very few of us to being with. And I have yet to try out a proteus smartbomber to catch those pesky shuttles, but one of these days …
Bottom line, if you can’t pin down a target, there won’t be any pvp
True, but I doubt there is less destruction now than there was pre uprising. (When EVE’s server population was at it’s low point.)
It’s not a problem, for me, but it is for others.
If you force people to pvp when they don’t want to, they’ll just stop playing EVE and do something else. If you want more people in dangerous areas, teach them how to survive in those areas.
I meant literally stacking the modules, like you can with weapons. So it only takes a single click to activate the modules. As I said, it would be a niche purpose, and probably most useful for stacking warp disruptors and scrams for the purpose of catching ventures.
I know that’s not what the op was talking about, but I mentioned it because it’s the first thing that came to mind when I read the convoluted mess he came up with.
Kind of. ESS is way to small though, and it has a choke point with the gate. Think more like a warp disruption grid that’s at least 1000km in diameter and has no acceleration gate blocking entrance. In order to find things within the space, you’d need to be close to them, so you’d actually have to explore the area using visual clues; instead of: detect area, warp to area, do activity, warp away.
My preference is to have all the celestial bodies work like this, but having dead zones all over the system would be good too. Content where people actually have to move around in it, rather than warp here, warp there, ect.
They also function as game mechanics.
Sounds like one way to deal with that is to give npc station tether mechanics then. Good point.
I’m not really sure what I’d think of doing that for gates though. Maybe only in empire space? That would crush suicide ganker gameplay though, so I’m not really in support of adding it to gate mechanics.
Filaments wouldn’t be as big of an issue for the purposes of evasion if people could sniff them out and follow through.
I don’t think you’d have to rework the mechanic. You could make the jump distance relatively small (unless the destination system is already direct gate connected) compared to the modules that impact jump fatigue currently.
Another possibility… would be to introduce a “jump space” area, which people would transition to and fly around in as if it were real space. Every second in that space would cost fuel. If you run out of fuel before you get to another star, you’d be dumped out in an empty area and start taking dot like in the out of bounds areas in zarzakh. I could go more in depth but we’re veering off topic here.
It’s interesting to me that the first things you mentioned in relation to that gameplay is socialization. Which incidentally, is also the main thing that makes mining and group pve bearable (some might even say enjoyable.)
I agree, as I’ve said repeatedly, I don’t support the op’s proposal. I merely offered counter proposals to try to fill the desires of what the op wanted.
Great ! We’ve been doing that since 2003. All is good. Adapt and adjust.
mkay 
or put them on F1-3 and use two fingers to press 3 buttons ?
On the other hand, stealth bombers lying in wait don’t afk whereas miners … hahaha. Of course, doing things, any thing, together in an MMO is always more fun than solo’ing.
Btw, an example of what can happen when one doesn’t have recourse to pinning down, our friends who run boosher fleets. Fun fun fun to fight those, NOT.
I did say it would have a niche use case, it would save clicks (or button presses) though, which is what I initially stated.
Another example is running a dual web set up. Guns, point, dual web. Turns 4 button presses into 3.
Anything with a cloak is going to the the most afk’d ship in “dangerous space.” Other than that, you’re effectively saying, non afk bombers aren’t afk. I could say the same for miners.
It sounds like you don’t know.
The Prophet assumes you don’t live in New Eden.
Ah. The Prophet knows whose shadow puppet you are now.
Objection, argumentative.
And besides the point. You’re effectively saying that stealth bomber hulls fitted not for bombing but for cloaky camping and cyno’ing can be afk.
I’d love it if miners had to wait for an asteroid to pass by, lmao. Then they’d have that unique gate camping feel, for a change.
I think if Eve was ‘all’ about pvp, then why waste all that time creating asteroids, npcs and highsec… ? It’s about a lot more than that for me… and no… I’m not saying go play another game… I’m saying currently pvp prevents a lot of the other gameplay that is already there in-game. They had to invent the Pochven mechanic because nobody could get to null-sec to play the npc game… and look how that’s turned out.
I posted something like that a long long time ago… one giant rogue asteroid that was to cross null-sec that was to be a moving war zone for mining fleets… lol
My question to that is this: What is the point of making a game feature of something that 80% of players don’t like (ganking) and that prevents most of those from engaging with 50% of the game features (null-sec)?
Not really sure people who fly and fit like you do, to then lose them in obvious places, should talk about PVP specifically or a pvp MMO in general.