The 3 Body Problem

Not computations, the tools are using numbers, while nature works on something irreducible, not a bunch of numbers. What you can think of that is irreducible already?

Yes you are obviously right, computation is also just an abstract tool created by us to reason about the universe. I just tried to show that math as a tool has its limits and there are other tools like computing that lets us reason about other aspects of reality.

10+10 = 20 is an example of the logic that is forever present in nature.

It should be quite clear is all we have done is create a system to refer to the values that are apparent in nature.

If we discuss light speed we can understand that it travels at 300,000 kilometers per second, isn’t it odd that nothing which has mass can travel faster than this? 300,000 may not exist in nature in that format but the limit of 300k kph is obviously a value which is apparent and that visual number is a 100% precise way of refering to how light behaves.

The methods we create refer to values that already exist in nature in one format or another.

Asking a cat is deflection away from answering the question.

Math was not invented by humans. Math has been around since the time of the Big Bang and before the Big Bang.

Mathematicians and scientists sat down and conducted experiments based on how the math proved the experiment could be reproduced.

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Hmm even that concept of reduction, ad infinitum or to some extend? When we can say: “I cant divide that any more” is that the end? It proved not to be the case multiple times.

Maybe what we see as reduction is only the idea. We are obviously biased towards that concept our whole life, without it world doesnt make much sense, we have to reduce because that is logic innate to our minds, to language system our thoughs are constructed from, and in effect also math.

We are measuring something already totally different than at measurement phase. We can come to conclusion that we are metaphorically those blind people describing the elephant’s legs trying to describe it whole, and the elephant also moves constantly.

We have to remember that what we observe is not nature in itself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning.

— Werner Heisenberg

Yes, but it’s an abstraction we built to talk about this things that happen in nature. The interesting thing about numbers is that we don’t usually think about them as abstractions because we are so used to it. That’s why it’s a nice example.

It’s like a language we built to talk more efficiently about this things. But the abstractions are not the things themselves.

It’s probably true that everyone who builds abstractions of sets would maybe arrive at something that resembles our arithmetic like 10+10=20. But that doesn’t mean that abstraction is there in nature. It’s something that is created if a brain is reasoning about this sets of objects and then creates this abstractions.

It’s more of a representation.

So, “300k” or “300,000” kps represents the limit of the rate at which light travels.

Well yes, that is more or less the same thing at least in this case :slight_smile:

Yeah and it’s always the same, no matter how fast an observer travels, which is crazy. But that is a completely different topic :slight_smile:

Life had to know about math, before the Big Bang in order to create, place and maintain components of a living cell in order for the cell to be considered a biological cell.

Otherwise, the result would have been a chunk of rock fused together due to collisions.

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I would even go so far as to say that every life on the Earth and the Universe was instructed in mathematical thought that was unique to each lifeform that each lifeform then used to determine their own physical traits and skun color. Those entities would have been those entities that hid their own uniqueness in our Universe, just like Moses and many others were hidden away from oppression that usually resulted in death.

Death of all life is the design of the Void that detests freedoms and rights to build and create.

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Why crazy? Its perfectly normal light speed. It is not even crazy when you can see that time stops when you travel with light speed. Imagine it, you can live forever as light! 2 Billions of years? No problem! 15 Billions? No problem either. infinity! Yes, its possible! Become an energy packet today! Only 9.99 exabillions of Dollars!

Well, every living and intelligent being will definitely come to the same conclusion which will result in a numerical system which represents the world around them, every living being at any corner of the universe will “create” as you put it the exact same system of numbers.

Don’t you find that odd that all living beings anywhere in universe would all come to the same conclusion? you can say it is our creation but this reasoning doesn’t explain the universal aspects.

The universe is predictable when people have a solid understanding of numbers, many have been able to predict an eclipse 1000s of years ago and they were 100% correct about the time and date.

Abstraction is the quality of existing as or representing an idea, and not a material object. So if a car is moving at 15km per hour then that is a factual description of how a car is moving through reality it is not an idea and it has a clear acceptability to real life and represents reality.

No I don’t find that odd.

Math is obviously bigger than just numbers. It’s like a tree of abstract constructs that is built up from a seed of axioms we derive from observation. But how that tree is built up depends on what is actually needed, by physics, economics, engineering and many other disciplines that use math as a tool. And this will absolutely be different. Even in our history we have examples of different people who create completely different constructs that do basically the same thing.

The parts that may be common is common because it’s the trivial parts near the roots. And even there we can already see different concepts in our own species that would lead to completely different abstractions on top, just look at roman numerals.

okay, if we look at roman numerals we get something like “IV” which is translated to “the number before 5” or “IX” when translated means “the number before 10” so this makes IV = 4 and IX = 9, can you not see any intelligent life will still come to the same conclusion?

The symbols may look different but the meaning is the same;

English: 3
Roman: III
Chinese: 三
Alien: ?

Abstract means: existing in thought or as an idea but not having a physical or concrete existence.

Numbers do have a type existence. “the car is moving at 20mph” because the car is moving at 20mph an accurate description of what the car is doing would involve numbers that represent an action.

I wouldn’t say math is necessarily abstract, yes studying your times table is abstract because nothing tangible is attached to it at that time, but in my example the tangible object is the car and the rate at which it is moving within reality. Because the car is tangible and it is actually moving at the said rate the numbers that describe the rate are non-abstract.

Also, the numbers that describe the revs for the car “3000 revs per minute” are not abstract because it is an observation of a tangible object. the same can be said for the numbers that represent horse power and engine size and the amount of fuel currently in the vehicle.

At this point I think we need to consider perspective, yes from our perspective numbers and methods and functions can be abstract, but we have reached a point where humanity accepts that we don’t understand everything about reality, we will only ever have the ability to view reality from one perspective.

I can somewhat accept that there is another perspective which is that of a god/diety, I also accept the universe seems to be created upon some sort of platform which is based on mathematics (remember I spoke of a body becoming too heavy and then collapsing and turning into a black hole?, there appears to be a mass/weight limit that reality can comfortably support) this would definitely explain how maths seems to precisly explain what we see.

So we can say that maths is non-tangible or abstract, but are we really right? I’m really not so sure. great discussion by the way i am really enjoying this. :+1:

I’m definitely not imposing this point on anyone, I’m just putting it in the pot for discussion.

The sauce.

@DrysonBennington I don’t want to be a wet blanket. When I did the science research for my Star Trek stories, I found there is a lot more to the fiction of science fiction than we care to imagine. There is nothing that travels faster than light. There is no warp speed. Time dilatation traveling FTL from Earth to a fictional stations such as Deep Space 9, would have you see everyone you knew back on Earth dead and long gone upon arrival. There is no proof wormholes even exist and if they do, a spaceship would never survive a trip through it. The powerful gravity would render it, along with anything inside, into matter thinner than a human hair.

I have no doubt that life exists elsewhere in this vast universe. But we will never travel to other stars. If anyone constructed a ship today, it would have to be a self sustaining biodome. The ship would move less than the speed of light and the people who leave Earth would never live to see the next solar system. Several generations aboard would pass before it reached its destination. By that time, most of the people aboard would have no personal memories of Earth and they would feel more at home on the ship than and inhabitable planet they discover.

As for black holes, they are a gravity well so strong light cannot escape them, all matter is compressed into the core. Thereby life building components of Earth or any other planet would never come out of a black hole.

Look it up, I am no science expert. But this is why I enjoy fiction and fantasy, I like it when people can image doing the impossible. As a writer, I prefer to write fantasy stories about dragons, wizards, demons, and vampires. Too often people ask technical questions about science fiction, they seem to forget the word “fiction” and what it means. Whereas when I write fantasy stories, I can just shrug and answer, “Because it’s magic duh!”.

You would need to have a constantly changing number for everything you want to think of. Its how the computer works. its not 1+1, its more like this:

and this is as close as it gets to nature calculating stuff using math, but its a tool made by human also.

You have to use something like a higher language and sets or algebra to actually represent things so you can understand relations, then you break them into smaller parts you can send thru cables. A+B=C means these are different things and together they also create different thing. But its just language, it corresponds to idea of moon, planet, and the object created from locating them both to one set.

This looks like logic operations that connect gates which is common in electronics.

And no, the symbol any human or alien assigns to, lets say the number 4, will be constant. And never change unless a worldwide agreement is made to change it. Where the number 4 is applied will be a variable (an example would be a car traveling at 4 mph) so, the speed of the car can vary which is why the speed value isn’t constant.

Any possible intelligent life out there will percieve what we percieve, and they will have a symbol which refers to 4 units of something. they will also have operators which won’t look the same as ours but will denote the same function within an equation.


Yes, what you posted are logic symbols, AND, NOT, OR, and so on, which are commonly used in programming and electronics. I don’t think this applies to what we are discussing here.

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They once lived in the Garden of Eden which was why we live inside New Eden now.

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Wrong, traveling at the speed of light does not cause time to stop due to the fact that a light photon is heat and the absolute temperature at which particles stop is -273 degrees kelvin.

At zero kelvin , particles stop moving (in spite of small quantum corrections). Physicists call this temperature “absolute zero”, since it cannot get any colder: we do not know how to make an atom move less when it is already motionless.

Travelling at the speed of light and faster allows an object to travel more distance at a greater rate of velocity.

Based on the fact and assuming that all life in the Universe resides within the habitable zone with +/- tolerances of the planets night and day based on the distance from the sun, all life in the Universe would experience time nearly the same. Traveling to a planet with life on it, 10,000 light years away at light speed would equate to the history of the home planet being 10,000 years in the past when the ship arrived at planet B.

Going faster than the speed of light simply means that a new coefficiant of events taking place on both planets, closer to real time, means a ship that takes a year to reach the same planet 10,000 ly away would see events on the home planet also taking a year.

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In order for particles to exist and interact prior to the Big Bang, there would had to have been temperatures above absolute zero. Otherwise, particles would not have interaction.

I would like to believe that the connections between the particles in the primordial universe were wrapped very tightly in a spiral, much like a wire wrapped around a pencil. A coiled length of wire has energy potential along the x,y,z plane compared to a straight piece of wire that has energy potential along the x,y, x, z and y, z planes only.

Whatever caused the coiled connections between a particle to uncoil, could have caused the stored energy potential to exist in 3 dimensions, x,y,z instead of only 2 dimensions of x and y.

As the wire uncoiled, the natural shape would have formed a spiral shape, similar to the shape of the galaxy, where other particles in between each energetic wavelength of the uncoiling wire could have absorbed the energy of the uncoiling that caused other energetic reactions to take place.

More later on…