The Havoc content, in it’s current form will physically and mentally hurt players if continued

Council Of Stellar Management Assembly Hall
41

Definately a fan individual responsibility AND responsible business practices.

“Ultimate responsibility” says it all, really. You clearly understand that there are responsibilities outside of the self, say carried by CCP.

As an Angel content player you get to be on the side that doesn’t have to defend anything and has only their ship to lose. This is vastly different from players who make places their home and are suddenly faced with the possibility of re-re-re-re-re-insurgencies that have a huge impact on the style of play forced upon them.

Nobody is pushing for a no-life approach. Not in militia or the other entities that I have fought with.

We aren’t talking gambling here. However, CCP has cracked down on gambling by shutting down EOHpoker and Eve-bet, so they understand they have a duty of care there.

CCP can argue, it has however been well documented that the Triglavian invasions had ill side effect for some players who struggle with keeping a healthy balance. To see this on repeat for what could be endless re-re-re-re-re-insurgencies to the same basket of systems is negligent to the duty of care CCP carries. As in, while CCP is clearly aware and has the metrics for the Triglavian invasions to understand the possibility for harm to some percentage of players responding to Triglavian like content in unhealthy ways the choice to re-introduce such gameplay with an increased and REPEATED pressure on playergroups is one that puts this percentage of players that is known by CCP to respond in unhealthy ways at increased risk.

While I understand the desire for Angel Cartel players to keep things the way they are, I would kindly ask you to respond to the two proposals I put forward instead of the generalised “Don’t like the grind? Losing sleep over it? Log out.” that has been put forward in this thread. It isn’t constructive.

Edit: spelling.

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42

Nobody is asking for the content to go away. The pvp and chaos is really enjoyable, but it needs to be balanced so not one side fights at a disadvantage. The Highsec side is currently at a disadvantage. Bubbles in lowsec are a curse and a blessing for all sides, but the casual people in Highsec are at a disadvantage. Just take Abudban as an example… the pirates have content and the casual highsec players that are unaware get farmed.
or Citadels/Moon Mining Stations in the affected system that are now endangered.

I like the fact that people want to defend highsec for a multitude of reasons and step out of their barges.
I like the fact that the usual daily business is interrupted for a while.
I like that pirates can really do piratey stuff and make a system lawless.
I like the fact that a pirate insurgency feels really threatening to the locals who have assets in those systems.

But I don’t like that Highsec players need to grind so hard for no reward other than keeping the status quo. And even then Freighters or mining ships get tackled by NPCs and need to be rescued.

Without organized groups that care about Highsec systems, all the systems would be Stage 5 corruption surely. And without people pushing back the Angels in Highsec or Lowsec the content would be more boring for the Angels as well. I think making Highsec people want to fight back and give them at least something would be an improvement for both sides.
And the best thing in my opinion would be a system that carries some suppression state into the future, just to remove pressure from the necassary ‘grind’. Maybe 10 or 20% could carry over to the next invasion.
Or maybe a bonus to mining or rare asteroid spawns / combat sites or something that is really worth fighting for for highsec people.

I’d love if our people were like “Yeah, tomorrow the pirates come back that will be fun, I hope we have some cool fights and can safe our system.”

Instead of:

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43

If you pay attention to my post then you see that I’m aware and that was just an example of when CCP actually bothered to do something about a feature that could be potentially harmful, see quote from the very post your replied to:

(Whether they did it just to avoid backlash or government regulations intervening or because they actually care for the players’ wellbeing is a different subjectmatter.)

I’m not participating in Havoc content in either side and even in general acting as if opposing thought is by default comes from people in vested interest that exploits the situation just tries to shift the focus away from legit responses by painting them biased when probably they are not.

It is a legit response even if it doesn’t address your specific point and especially only because you don’t like the response it doesn’t mean it is not legit nor accurate, especially if multiple people mention it.

In the end it is a vid’ya game and if people put more time and effort (or even money) into such than it is healthy for them or they can afford then they have an issue (maybe even a mental one) and they have to think about it and seek help if can’t solve it on their own.

There is all so much a company can do in such a case and the example I’ve cited earlier shows (at least in some cases) CCP does go out of its way to address an issue, but as earlier wrote:

You not liking this fact doesn’t mean it is not right, it just means you try to go out of your way to blame for something they actually are not nor should be held responsible for (there’s plenty of things they mess up anyway they can be blamed for all the time).

44

Verifiably false, see:

Tankbuster, at the end of the day, this could have been a constructive thread about the Empire militia’s Manifesto on improving suppression mechanics. I’m sure there’s opportunity for great discussion on balancing mechanics, and aspects all sides can agree upon.

This thread is not that. So we won’t know here. It started as a “nerf the Angels, allege real world harm” thread (usually reserved for “nerf ganking” threads) and brigaded upon further. I don’t know why, but that’s the tone towards the CSM and CCP that wanted to be set in this thread. I get people aren’t having fun and are hurting in their over-a-decade-old militia organization, but lashing out by asking the CSM and CCP to make the other barely-a-month-old-and-disorganized side miserable plus the “think of the chiildren” of Eve is putting one’s self hard at work to earn ridicule.

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Real world harm yes, it’s not about nerfing angels. It’s maybe more about nerfing their ability to corrupt systems.

Again, nobody asked to make the Angels side more miserable and the people like Commonwealth Vanguard and DammFam are not militia people except a few.

Why do you always twist threads and try to seed false information making the people who care look ridiculous?

If like Dak Rattler suggested, this kind of burnout leads to players leaving it’s not good for the game and is good to discuss and maybe adjust it to find a better system that is more fair.

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46

I do care as well, you just don’t like me on a personal level. Fine.

I agree. But you were first in denial of – and are now ignoring – a very explicit point put forward about how “insurgencies should be once every few months”. To recap: I claimed Jesoph’s comment would effectively eliminate the content, you said “no”, I provided the direct quote, and now you’ve left it ignored, and now instead are directly attacking me claiming I am “twisting threads” and “seeding false information”. Go ask any Angel member how the 48 cooldown period was, and ask them how a >720 hour cooldown period will be. I’ll wait.

We cannot have good faith conversations when you are too busy making personal attacks and will not actually listen.

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47

They are both ill-thought-through. If you actually want a conversation you can reach out to me on Discord because otherwise the rest of your response with things like like:

Is undermined by this in your very OP:

I am confident anything else I say in this thread is not going to be constructive, or will be talked past, or will be brushed off, so I am just going to bow out.

48

A ‘cooldown’ period is only one of the possible ways to fix it. Technically it’s just about removing the ‘grind’ as it is unhealthy, content. by having ‘the grind’ only appear every so and so days, sure that would make things better, but there is probably a better way to fix the underlying issue with the mechanics design, that doesn’t feel overwhelming and unfair to either side.

I think picking up the real life hurt is a good way to get CCPs attention so their game designers figure out a good solution fast. And I think it’s still a good place to discuss the mechanics.
I’d really like to hear some ideas from the pirate site. Do they have similar stuff going on and what’s their ideas about this?

49

Somebody probably said this already, but minmil have been dominating for years uncontested, and now that theres a contest and your highsec stuff is in danger once in a few insurgencies, you cry to ccp to nerf the content. Its no different to if a merc corp war decked the structure owning corps and destroyed them, atleast against the angels you stand a chance!

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50

I think if you just delete the thread and start from this perspective you’ll get a better set of replies. Your original post sounded like you wanted to completely nerf / stop incursions. If you instead argue that you should be rewarded for defending and don’t the extra ‘mental health’ part then I think you’ll see much better replies.

51

On your claim that Minmatar Militia has been dominant for years, in a word: NO. In a sentence, no Mimnatar militia did not in fact dominate uncontested for the last years. The Amarr Militia and the ashes of Turnur will probably want to have a word with you.

If you would have read my original post, you would know I am not calling for a nerf of the Angel content but rather a buff when suppression stage five is reached, for the express purpose of not pulling people in continuous re-re-re-re-re-insurgency hellgrind to defend.

The amount of wardecs that have been endured over the years is numerous, by most mercenary wardeccers around, with many structures enduring multiple timers and a fair few blowing up. That is all doable and good content.

Being thrust into a situation where The Initiative. (70+), Goonswarm Federation (60+), Pandemic Horde (20+) and Fraternity. (20+) can come in on top of the unaffiliated Angel Cartel players (70+) makes for a lopsided playing field. And those are just the numbers when dealing with Angel Cartel players, not additional members of those alliances that would attend a lowsec bonfire.

You don’t motivate the why? Why do you think those are ill-thought-through.

On the “Nobody is pushing for a no-life approach.” This is a true statement. The talk of using paid overtime was by the person considering this. This person was not prompted to do so, nobody asked them to consider this, and there was immediate push-back from their alliancemates on the mere suggestion. None of the people I have flown with contesting the Angel Cartel were advocating unhealthy behavior. However, especially during the Triglavian invasions, a lot of people were repeatedly told to get some sleep. CCP has the metrics to quantify this.

Sorry to hear you feel that way.

Please re-read the OP. The two suggestions amount to a buff when suppression stage five is reached for the system that it was reached in. Not a nerf, not a cessation of the content.

And the mental and physical health is the only reason I call for this. As is this content will wreck people IRL. This should never be a design feature in any game.

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If you have any stuff in Eve with 0% chance of losing it - then why bother?

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If you have a 100 % chance of losing it with no way of putting up a fight for it - then why bother?

54

Please re-read the OP. The two suggestions amount to a buff when suppression stage five is reached for the system that it was reached in. Not a nerf, not a cessation of the content.

And the mental and physical health is the only reason I call for this. As is this content will wreck people IRL. This should never be a design feature in any game.

Yes I know what you said, hence why I said “sounded like you”. It doesn’t matter. What matters is the impression you’re giving to other people in this thread from all the justifications for those two points. Nobody wants to hear your poor excuses for not being able to control yourself. I agree with some of your points, it needs a little balancing perhaps on the rewards side but the whole thread is derailed so just start over :slight_smile:

55

Adapt or die. That’s the name of the game. MinMil stood virtually unopposed the last few months. Buy more ships, get more FCs to step up, fight the good fights, or sit and ship spin. When FW was first introduced it was the same as this. Everyone survived. If you’re invested in playing so much of a video game that your health is at risk, Id say its time to choose a new lifestyle.

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So giving you a decided bonus to suppression is going to fix things? For you maybe. But that seems like you are then trying to unbalance the scale and have Angels “no life it” to have an opportunity to win.

As for Abudban being taken over. All gates going into an insurgency system have a warning pop up. If you choose to jump, that is on you.

On the time it takes, it was a grind when I was in Min Mill also. You didn’t care about that as it didn’t affect your high sec goods. Grinding for months on end to take systems. While you would benefit from selling items to the Militias with nothing to lose.

Now that you have something to lose you have a issue with player safety. I stick to my original comment. Log out when you feel stressed. Take some you time. Don’t ask for the game to be nerfed for your convenience.

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As someone who has been in Faction Warfare for over a dozen years “Adapt or die.” has been a given. You show a lack of understanding of the ebb and flow in Faction Warfare by claiming a few months is a timeline worth noting in Faction Warfare.
As for “choose a new lifestyle”, no. I make sure I enjoy myself. But the hellgrind that was the Triglavian content should not be on repeat and CCP should do better.

It’s not a bonus to suppression, it’s skewing the table slightly less towards the Angel Cartel so defenders don’t get subjected to being forced to grind the same systems out to suppression stage five every few days.

Abudban wasn’t at suppression stage 5 and as such was turned into a nice playground. Why are you assuming I took issue with that? Not looking to take your content away and it is annoying you want to paint me as such.

You were in Minmatar Militia for weeks. Having been in Minmatar Militia for a long time I can tell you that there is a huge difference to the intensity of the grind. The heaviest fighting Minmatar and Amarr Miliitas have been through were mutually agreed upon grindfests and certainly intense. The mutually agreed upon bit is key here. Whereas the Triglavian content was thrust upon the players irregardless of preferred playstyle. As this content is also thrust upon players with no regard for preferred playstyle. And as such it carries the same risks to player retention and player health.

Also, your assumption I do anything with highsec goods is a weird one? Are you under the mistaken assumption I am some mining industrialist? The closest I have been to mining was cleaning jetcans out from the belts in 2009 and more recently but still a fair bit ago swapping a sigil for a procurer because someone tried baiting and instead left their procurere drifting next to their orca.

Why would you assume I have anything to lose? Last structure I actually cared about blew up in 2021. I do care about keeping the playerbase form burning out. And the warningsigns that this lack of balance will result in adverse effects on some players are clearly visible and the metrics CCP has will support this.

Again, not asking for a nerf, but a buff to reaching suppression stage five in the systems it’s reached in. You keep ignoring that.

58

A buff for one side is a nerf to the other.

Having been in GalMil for the past year, no it hasn’t.

That’s between Amarr and Minmatar (if it even exists). Gallente and Caldari don’t do that sort of stuff and neither will the Angels nor Guristas. I don’t see why it has to be mutual at all, only one side wanting conflict is needed for an attack to happen.

It’s the same playstyle as with normal FW but with a slight twist. Sit in a plex, spin a timer, fight some PVP or run if outgunned. Small rule adjustments aside, it’s the same game play with the addition of some raiding if Pirates can get to a certain goal.

And you got this impression from what? The average player numbers are up, people are having fun, ships are being blown up, markets are shifting. Point us to what you see as clearly visible.

59

Invalidates all your comments. A few weeks. Give your head a shake. Bottom line is you want it to be totally safe for you in high sec. Good luck.

60

How many systems reached suppression stage five? How many reached corruption stage five? Those numbers say it all.

Join people in getting a system to suppression stage five and then we can talk intensity again, with you properly informed.

Your statement “only one side wanting conflict is needed for an attack to happen” clearly indicates you understand that there is a slant to the pressure experienced. You know your content is thrust on the other without the consent that is foundational to the four way empire faction war as it has been waged for over a decade. I have compared it to the Triglavian invasions, because part of the gameplay that made that a hellgrind is back in this content, with the well documented negative side effects that had.

It is markedly different in that it allows for bypassing the normal system capturing mechanics that have been fundamental to the Faction Warfare gameplay loop and gets to spill into highsec systems that were never part of Faction Warfare before.

Referring to dropping a highsec system to lowsec for a while as “some raiding” indicates you have no understanding of what that means for residents of these systems, the gameplay and nullblock invasion they will be subjected to.

The warningsigns are in defending players putting in more hours, a lot more hours then during their normal gameplay days or are certain to lose the system to corruption five. This wrecks schedules, has adverse effects IRL and puts a larger then first agreed upon mental strain on the player the same as was seen during the Triglavian invasions. CCP can clearly see this in their metrics. The player can not opt out.

The character Coly was only in Minmatar Faction Warfare for eight days in 2014 and then again for 42 days in 2023 over the last decade. How would you like me to refer to that stint if not in weeks? Over a month?

If stating fact gets you this agitated…are you doing ok?

Again, not asking to be safe. Asking to not have to do the hellgrind every few days.