A mining permit is required by the New Halaima Code of Conduct.
Which is the law James 315 put onto highsec when he was elected by proxy in 2012.
People don’t have to agree with it. It still is the law we, as players, enforce.
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Laws only apply to the people who are living under it.
Since CODE want to apply their rules to people who do not belong to CODE, then they are not laws.
You’re right. That’s true.
Now look at the actual situation.
There are now, thanks to CODE, far more tanked mining ships out there than there were ever before. You are aware, I’m quite sure. The reason for this, is because there’s plenty of people who aren’t even CODE agents, spreading the word that new players need to tank their mining ships. Not tanking it increases the chances of getting exploded. Dramatically.
So there are a lot of people telling others that there is an organization which kills miners unless they obey their CODE, and that CODE requires people to tank their ships and not be afk. There are actually people out there who stop playing afk, and those who do at least have learned to tank their ships.
So … you’re right:
- Laws are rules people, who live together, agree on.
- The CODE claims to be a Law.
- Everyone tells everyone else to tank their mining ships, otherwise people from CODE will come and blow them up.
- The CODE requires people to be attentive and/or at least tank their ships.
You’re right.
People agree that the CODE is a Law.
Thanks.
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You misunderstood me. I don’t think CODE. is bad. Actually I think it’s very good and I already explained in another post why.
But just because “tanking ships and being ATK” are very important notions, does not mean that asking for them is a law. The simple fact that you want to apply them to people who are not in your corporation prevent them from being laws. The same is truth for “not dual tanking ships” or other common knowledge. Even saying “enjoy the game” does not make it law.
so the only thing that you can actually deduce is that “people agree that CODE. requirement of tank and ATK make people better players”. NOT that it is any kind of law.
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Who applies your real-life laws? Your local government. What if you decide “I don’t want to be a member of this government”, you decline all government services (we’ll pretend you live off grid somewhere), decline to pay your taxes, and decline to follow the rules set by that government (you perform some illegal-to-them action on your land).
Do you think your local government is just going to say “well, you can opt out as much as you want, we’re still the ones with the authority”? Of course they are.
Or another example, look at a coup. It was illegal, and yet, not only did it happen but now the original government is illegal. Any laws that are going to change, just got changed, and the original law had no say in the matter.
Laws are written by the people with the biggest stick. Always and forever. Just as it is in real life, it is so in Eve.
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Is there any evidence of an agent selling permits without mentioning that they’re provisional?
You can’t even put the permit in your bio without knowing it has a link to the code you’re supposed to follow unless you don’t read the issued permit. The purchaser bears responsibility for their ignorance if they decline to read the documentation on their product.
(The below was added after Dom added his like, which I mention so that my edits don’t misrepresent him.)
10 million isk is not a lot of isk. Once an agent has corrected a non compliant about 4 times or so, the profit from this is negated for an entire year. Even at 30 million isk for a red pen list violator, this is by far the lowest price I’ve ever seen to be permitted to live in someone’s claimed territory and enjoy a degree of protection from those who do not pay. An enforcer in Eve can’t ever kill you. They can only inflict monetary loss and restrict your activities, which are accepted methods that enforcement authorities apply today.
It’s not really a scam if they deliver on the promise not to attack you if you follow their rules, and it’s not really extortion to me when the fee is so low.
People don’t like being told what to do or how to play. I get that because I enjoy my freedom and independence. To have that, though, I have to accept that any CODE. agent may decide to shoot me for taking that stance. It is a consequence of my own choice to disobey.
Do I alter my play style to account for this? Of course I do. And perhaps I am following the code anyway, but I don’t view this as a zero sum game where someone has to win and someone has to lose. I don’t disobey just to be contrary.
CODE. is a social group making their mark in New Eden. That’s practically the game’s premise and what we all aspire to achieve. The way they go about it is pretty transparent to anyone who cares to read. They teach a valuable life lessons to new players, even if the method is not very diplomatic, before they suffer losses that are truly crippling, and they teach best practices for fitting your ship to avoid dying in the first place.
Without conflating real life rules and consequences that don’t apply to the in game universe it is very difficult to paint the CODE. alliance as anything but an honest authority.
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Good Point. @ISD_Sakimura, maybe you should add to the title of your thread the word “Extortion,” “Racket” or “Shake Down”
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No law can work without the people living under them agreeing with them. Coups happen because people are split on the question. Read “The Prince” of machariel ( 
) for more explanations.
Do murderers agree to follow the laws saying murder is illegal? They still lived there, they simply opted out.
You don’t have to agree with a law for it to be a law. The people who make the law simply need to be able to swing a bigger stick and ultimately force your compliance.
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Yes they agree to them. Agreeing with laws and following them is completely different.
Agreeing with the law and following it are absolutely the same thing. Agreeing and choosing not to follow is the same as lying about your agreement to follow said law.
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Not agreeing with laws prevents you from being a citizen. See ostracism.
Not abiding to the law makes you an outlaw, but does not prevent you from being protected by the same laws. You can be an outlaw and still a citizen.
Hm. We can agree on things.
Old Pervert above beats me to what I wanted to bring up.
CODE is like a wannabe government. Like all governments, when you don’t follow their laws, you get punished for it. Like in all governments, there are a lot of people who do not agree with certain laws, but they have to accept them anyway.
I agree with you partly … partly, because CODE lacks the manpower to enforce it throughout all of highsec. If they actually managed to do so, though, then it would be really close to real-life laws.
The reason is simply that, more important than “everyone” agreeing on laws, is that there is someone who enforces them. Laws have no meaning, when they’re not being enforced.
Still … there are people (residents of the country) who inform new players (immigrants, visitors) of the fact that there is a group which demands that people follow their CODE, otherwise punishment will be enacted.
Does that make it a Law?
I don’t know.
Mafia, though?
Yeah, kind’a.
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There’s around 10+ million stateless people in the world.
Citizenship isn’t a matter of opinion. Almost everyone’s a registered as a citizen of some place, some where. Disagreeing with Laws does not make someone stateless. I am not convinced you’re wording this right.
Additionally … ostracism is meaningless here, because “law-disobeying” people do not walk around telling everyone that they disagree/disobey any and all laws … and even if they did that, most others simply won’t care about it as long as the person in question isn’t an asshole.
The chances of that person being an asshole, though, skyrocket.
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It’s not a law, it’s a scam, or bullying, either way…go away and grow up.
If anyone is reading this and is asked to buy a permit, tell them to 9874 oih96r ouhyew[fn [ueuh.
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Differing definitions, something of a split hair it seems. To me, agreeing to follow a law is consent to be governed by it. If you choose to disobey said law, your agreement is implicitly broken. If you choose not to be governed by it, your consent to follow that rule is withheld. That doesn’t mean that they won’t still enforce that law in either case.
It feels like (and please correct if I’m wrong) you’re referring more to a consent to be a member of a society, whose acceptance is contingent on your willingness to follow the rules. That feels like it’s a higher-level construct on top of the topic at hand.
Not true at all. A law, written by the people with the stick, says that you’re entitled to be protected by the laws you choose to break. If that law were removed, you would be entitled to no protection. Within the context of Eve, that protection does not exist. There are a number of nations where that law doesn’t exist IRL.
How are they deceiving you? Bullying, kind of. But hey, Eve’s not meant to be a Friend Ship game. And if you don’t want to buy a permit, don’t. Nobody’s forcing you to. But, nobody’s going to stop the sellers from popping you either.
They do say, that friendship is the best ship.
However I agree, that in our current safe iteration of the game, it seems that most of the highsec dwellers just want to sit in some backwater system and solo mine.
All those bullies disrupting the quality time one has with rocks.
Hahaha
What a way to argue. Not…
This is my thread, so back at you.
Actually, the rocks are the one being truly bullied as they have no choice but to accept their fate… miners on the other hand… 
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Yeah… CODE are just misunderstood environmentalists 
. Save the rocks!
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