The Orca

[Lugues_Slive]

Depending on fitting, I dont remember how large your normal hold can get.

EDIT:

Just checked in simulator, can get about 101k m3 with all rigs and lows set for cargo.

[Salt_Foambreaker]

Moving the ore is still the way to go, it is just that the existing holds don’t meet the need. Yield changes are yet another fix that doesn’t.

They probably need to add a small “Mining Hold” that holds about 3-5 mins worth of ore at max output.

They need to avoid nerfing the main hold because Orca has many uses.

[Scipio_Artelius]

@Hans_Devin

Now tell me where all the miners issued thousands of posts lobbying CCP to nerf the combat ships so as to wreck PvP and save Eve.

OK. If you want to change what you originally asked for, to now this, there’s just as many calls to nerf the Catalyst, and thread after thread for calls to nerf pvp so it can’t happen in highsec at all without explicit concent (ie. duels only).

There is no “virtuous side” in this. For every post saying the Orca should be nerfed, there’ll be 10 (or more) in other threads asking for pvp to be nerfed.

But why even this binary approach? It isn’t “Orca or pvp”. This thread is just about the Orca and it isn’t just a case of highsec pvpers lobbying for it to be nerfed.

It’s CCP who have said they are thinking of rebalancing it (and that doesn’t mean nerf, although often ends up that way because development of the game doesn’t have much imagination at the moment).

Different people have different opinions of why and how and that is fine. Oninions aren’t wrong. Everyone is entitled to them, but in the end only CCP’s will matter.

A better focus would be to try to convince CCP that the Orca isn’t used AFK beyond your own use of it. If you can show how almost no one uses it AFK, then you might have an argument to help convince them to look at their data differently (assuming that the ability to use it AFK is a major part of why they want to rebalance it…I don’t think we actually have a quotable statement from them that it’s the case).

[Daichi_Yamato]

@Lugues_Slive

CCP has already stated that they are adding an ice and gas bay.

Not necessarily to the orca. They are adding them to the game. So wait and see on that one.

@Lugues_Slive

One option is to add more Orca like ships with specialized bays.

That’s what I’m thinking. They are going to add specialised miners and go back on their changes in 2012.

@Lugues_Slive

Orca’s AFK ice mining would be limited, since you wouldn’t be mining into the 187.5k m3 hold but the 30k m3 (depending on fit) cargo hold.

You mean 90k m3. Which is still plenty time to afk.

@Ranar_Linyne

Yield, unless it is actually 0, changes nothing.

That’s obviously not true.

There is clearly a threshold where yield is low enough to not be worth afk’ing for most people. That’s why you didn’t see orcas afk mining before the change and why you don’t see many afk miasmos.

@Vortigern_Vitalis

Are you seriously suggesting an Orca has a normal cargo hold of 90,000 m3?

Mine has just over 92k m3 cargo hold…

Unless I’ve broken eve…I’m confused. How are you struggling with that?

[Daichi_Yamato]

@Vortigern_Vitalis

If so, you really have proved that you do not have any idea of what you speak…

See what i mean.

@Koyaan_i_Squatchi

I’ve come to the “consensus” that:

1. All players opposed to the Orca and want it nerfed don’t fly Orcas.
2. All players that are in favor of Orcas and want it buffed or left alone DO fly Orcas.

Clearly it’s the people who have no knowledge of the orca that are crying for it to stay broken.

[MB_ThePhotographer]

@Salt_Foambreaker

They probably need to add a small “Mining Hold” that holds about 3-5 mins worth of ore at max output.

What’s the avg time between TV commercials? That’s the time length I would shoot for.

[Lugues_Slive]

@Daichi_Yamato

There is clearly a threshold where yield is low enough to not be worth afk’ing for most people. That’s why you didn’t see orcas afk mining before the change and why you don’t see many afk miasmos.

This gets to the point of the whole AFK mining argument. Right now the complaint is not that people necessarily AFK mine, but that they can. And if you reduce the yield to 1m3 per minute, its not that people wont AFK mine, its that they still can.

I agree that, if the correlation between drone yield and AFK mining is the driving factor, it has to be all or nothing. But I also believe that drone yield is not the only, or best, way to address the concern of AFK mining.

[Iceacid_Frostpacker]

It does go deeper than just afk orca mining though.

[Daichi_Yamato]

@Lugues_Slive

But I also believe that drone yield is not the only, or best, way to address the concern of AFK mining.

The problem is two fold though. It’s not just that people afk mine, but also that people choose the orca over barges.

A fleet of just orcas, shouldn’t be a thing, afk or not. A solo miner using an orca shouldn’t be a thing.

Unfortunately not only are they a thing, but it actually happens more often than not.

[Lugues_Slive]

@Daichi_Yamato

It’s not just that people afk mine, but also that people choose the orca over barges.

A fleet of just orcas, shouldn’t be a thing, afk or not. A solo miner using an orca shouldn’t be a thing.

I don’t see why this is a problem. Players are weighing the pros and cons of using different ships and choose to go with an Orca. The fact that we have hundreds of ships shows that player choice is important. If CCP does not want players to use Orcas, then they should provide us with reasonable replacements instead of nerfing a ship just because some people do not like other peoples ship selection.

[Penance_Toralen]

The problem is two fold though. It’s not just that people gank miners, but also that people choose miners to the exclusion of any other target or activity.

I do not see a point in talking about the end of mining career path without first addressing barges and exhumers. It should not be a surprise then that players forgo barges/exhumers when they are a sub-par experience.

[Iceacid_Frostpacker]

When the gathered material becomes as simple as afking on a belt, doesn’t this then lower the average isk value of that gathered material?

Aren’t we all paying for it now with the new direction the game is heading?

[Lugues_Slive]

I fly an Orca for the drone mining. I have been wanting a mining drone ship since they took away the Domi’s ability to use 15 drones. I don’t AFK mine any longer than it takes to use the bathroom. The huge cargo hold is a perk, but not why I use it.

If CCP adds a replacement barge/exhumer that is drone based and take away the mining capability of the Orca, I would most likely just move into that (depending on execution).

[Daichi_Yamato]

Except it is a problem and is exactly why ships have been rebalanced in the past. If players are choosing one ship over the rest, and not only that but using it for a job that other ships are supposed to be specialised in, then that indicates a design problem.

If a battleship was used for tackling more than frigates, that indicates an issue. If a destroyer was used for exploration more than SOE ships, that indicates a problem.

With the orca we have a support ship used for mining more than actual mining ships. It indicates a problem.

@Penance_Toralen

It should not be a surprise then that players forgo barges/exhumers when they are a sub-par experience.

Except they aren’t that bad. Between barges/exhumers there is a half decent choice. A choice that was fine until the orca buff.

@Lugues_Slive

If CCP adds a replacement barge/exhumer that is drone based and take away the mining capability of the Orca, I would most likely just move into that (depending on execution).

Funnily enough there’s an idea for just that.

And it would be much better than having an orca do it.

[Salt_Foambreaker]

@MB_ThePhotographer

@Salt_Foambreaker

They probably need to add a small “Mining Hold” that holds about 3-5 mins worth of ore at max output.

What’s the avg time between TV commercials? That’s the time length I would shoot for.

Only 1 minute?

I would say they should measure the time it takes for a max yield Hulk to fill it’s hold and make the Orca be similar.

Same for the Rorq IMHO

[Arumi_Liz]

Yea, Where did I say that orca mines more than a barge? I don’t need a mining barge now because the orca mines better than a venture. As it stands when I move around in the orca I typically have a pvp fit battlecruiser in it. If they made it where orca’s can’t mine I’d have to replace either my t3 cruiser or my pvp battlecruiser in order to be able to mine a small amount of ore in less than 10 minutes. I don’t need a barge now because my orca can yield a decent amount of ore by itself. However, if all I did was mine to make isk, then yea, I’d be using an exhumer. I never said that the orca mines more. It mines well enough that using it as a mini mobile base makes it where I don’t need to bring a mining ship with me. That’s a good thing.

[Lugues_Slive]

@Daichi_Yamato

If a battleship was used for tackling more than frigates, that indicates an issue. If a destroyer was used for exploration more than SOE ships, that indicates a problem.

I know some don’t agree, but I see it more of a progression in the line. So it would be more like saying that if battlecruisers were used more for mission running than cruisers were, we should nerf battlecruisers.

EDIT:

To build on this, I can see where players would say that the Orca and an Exhumer to not play the same role so the Orca is not a progression from an Exhumer. To this I would compare a Battleship and a Dread. They do not necessarily fill the same role, but players still aspire to progress from the Battleship to the Dread. And even though it is arguable that a Battleship role is to do high end PVE, originally the Dread was designed as a structure basher and is now used for PVE.

Also, I would be more inclined to agree that the Orca needed a nerf if there was another ship you could progress to that was being ignored for the Orca. If there was battleship class mining ship that had Orca like tank or cargo hold and people did not move out of the Orca, then the Orca is too good.

[Pan_Dora1 (Pan Dora)]

@Lugues_Slive

I know some don’t agree, but I see it more of a progression in the line.

And that is why IMHO was a mistake to give mining bonus for the Orca and (specially) the Rorqual in the first place. That was when those become, in a sense, a progression from barges/exhumers rather than just a different branch.

[Magdiel_Hope]

I solo orca mine, as well as fleet barge mine. Except for large ice chunks, it is simply not possible to afk mine without using a bot.
Rocks don’t last long enough to go afk. Maybe long enough to watch a YouTube video or something, or smoke a bowl. You have to reset drones too often, even if it’s one drone per rock.
This asinine argument about afk mining and how it should require more micromanagement is stupid. With full skills and augmented drones, you’re making around 10-13m per hour. It’s extremely stupid to think a 2b isk ship is raking in the cash while mining.
The real argument is ■■■■ stain gankers have to make friends to take down even a ■■■■ fit orca. They lobby and whine and make up lies to fool the simple minded forum folk to think along their narrative. The majority of commenters should feel ashamed to be so easily fooled.

[Magdiel_Hope]

Not to mention, every 20 minutes you have to pull your drones to kill rats. While they don’t even scratch the paint of an orca, they have no problem popping drones.
Your arguments are completely stupid because most of you don’t mine, so have no clue what you’re typing about.
I can’t tell you how hard I’ve been laughing at the 990 comments on this thread.