Version 19.11 - General Feedback

[Harley-1998_Davidson]

thank you

[Rogal_Clintock]

You didnt get what i said: I use 3 MLUs and get more out of it then 60k.

I got 76k ehp Prepatch, Im back at 76k ehp and more would be possible if i get rid of a MLU.

But its pointless comparing a Prepatch Skiff with 3 MLU with one Postpatch and 2. Thats giving up Yield for tank and of course you have more because you have more Tankmodules…

Edit: T2 or T1 fittet. No faction was ever needed.

[Shalmon_Aliatus]

If you are sitting next to an Orca and local begins to look suspicious, swap those MLU2 for Energized Adaptive Nano Membranes II.

[Lauralite_Anne_Brezia]

Indeed

[Wadiest_Yong]

I went Simple Asteroid Mining in Hisec…

Maybe it’s been posted somewhere, but I have this “aha” moment with the Waste Mechanic that I’d like to share. If it’s redundant and far better explained somewhere else, please ignore this post. I can also confirm what @The_Mittani said in the Meta show last Saturday, it really doesn’t shrink when you admit you made a mistake earlier, although I was a bit nervous.

The entire Waste mechanic is Chance based.

Let’s say you are using a modulated strip miner II with a B II crystal. The combined attribute related to waste, which you can see via Show Info (it will be 64% in that combination, and cannot be influenced) simply means that, on average (!) out of 100 cycles 64 cycles will produce waste, or 64% or 2 out of 3 cycles. The waste produced is exactly the same amount as what your tool pulls during that cycle. If waste happens, then it is deducted from the asteroid volume first. What’s left over in the asteroid is used to calculate what you get in your mining hold.

The larger the sample size, the closer the waste will indeed be 64%. For small sample sizes it will vary anywhere between 100% and 0% waste! What this means is, if you attempt to mine a small asteroid with fewer m3 than what your strip miner+B2 will pull, you have a 1 in 3 chance that you will get it, 2 in 3 you won’t get anything (waste is taken from the asteroid before you get anything). This is similar to the situation with e.g. the invention mechanic.

Overall i.e., with sufficiently large numbers of cycles, in the very worst case with B-2 crystals you will get the same amount as if the patch had not happened (you pull and waste equal amounts because the dice are against you. Again, this is a statistical element.
If you mine asteroids smaller than what any of your strip miners pull you have a real but small chance of always getting nothing at all, the same way you do have a chance of pulling the last bit of ore against the waste mechanic. So beware. Best switch to A-type ones in the case of small asteroids, or for very needed minerals.

Ask yourselves, miners, do you feel lucky. Well, do ya ?

[Chan_aar]

Thats the biggest issue I have with the waste / residue. I just don’t understand why they didn’t make it a flat (smaller) percentage. Random mechanics suck, someone somewhere will get nerfed hard by Murphy.

[Wadiest_Yong]

To put it in a positive way, they opted to reward active (non-afk) miners and number crunchers. A flat percentage would have meant they allowed afk mining to continue. It still can, but at lower efficiency and competitiveness.

[Master_Sarevok]

There seems to be something wonky with the residue calculation on rocks that go empty. I’ve been mining for an hour with T2 type B’s and regularly I’m barely getting any yield on the last cycle (sometimes even 0) when it should yield a full cycle’s worth. For instance 4000m3 on a yield of 2744 per cycle, should give me 2744m3 if the promise that it won’t hurt the yield of the cycle is always the same still stands…

[Aisha_Katalen]

@Wadiest_Yong

Chance based.

Several folks have been saying that the whole time. You’re right that with enough data points (cycles) it all evens out but the thing is that you don’t need too many cycles per asteroid, especially not if you multibox and for whatever (lazy) reason pick the same rock.

Then all of a sudden that RNG means that you can’t fully predict when that roid goes boom, meaning that you can’t time it and you might either miss out on ore as you were afk and didn’t expect it to have popped yet, OR (for optimised mining) you have to be active and ofc no one got time for THAT.

CCP gave this some good thought (for once)

[Wadiest_Yong]

Here’s how I tested the mechanic: a covetor with a single modulated strip miner II and a B-II crystal. I had it set for single cycles, to give me time to re-scan the asteroid after every cycle and take notes. My combined waste probability for that setup is 64%. With my fit and skills, that combo gave me 2010.5 m3 per cycle.

Mining an asteroid of 15572 m3 I had 3 cycles that each produced 2010.5 m3 Waste, and 2 cycles, including the last cycle that had a high chance of not giving anything because it was smaller than what the combo pulled, that gave zero Waste.

In another case I had waste on every cycle, and didn’t pull anything from the last cycle (less ore left than what the strip miner pulled and waste kicked in first).

It’s all down to sample size.

[Wadiest_Yong]

@Aisha_Katalen

but the thing is that you don’t need too many cycles per asteroid, especially not if you multibox and for whatever (lazy) reason pick the same rock.

Absolutely true, and even with double sized asteroids now in hisec there is that possibility of ending up on the wrong side of the distribution curve. However, if you mine enough asteroids and do more cycles that way, you will be on the correct side of the distribution, although perhaps not getting the minerals you were after (in which case an A-type would have been wiser). For stripping a belt or two ? B-crystals all the way. The more cycles, the closer you get to that reported probability number.
Mining on the same asteroid ? Perhaps a suspect flag ?

[Melina_Femoti]

Dear CCP can you tell me WTF is the new Gas Harvester?!? 4 days pass and still not in the game as the new transport ships! WHY PUT IN THE PATCHNOTES WHEN YOU DUMB TO MAKE IT?? Actually never saw a game where " Added new thing, but we dont put in the game " Sometimes you see yourslef? Dosent boder you this big faceplam failing?
But your trash fancy 24 hours cycle shitskinstrom and buyplex marketing is working. You think we are Fortninte community where the avr. age 12?
Fix the game! But looks like you are not enugh big for this game and community and you prove it patch by patch. :S

[Master_Sarevok]

Sounds about right. Of course if I’m mining 5 to 7k m3 scordite rocks, almost every 2nd cycle will be a final cycle with a 64% chance of not yielding anything… I’ll stick to Type A’s until CCP clarifies this.
(I also made a bug report, since the devblog clearly promised no wasted cycles)

[Arrendis]

@Aisha_Katalen

So much backtracking and “lol no, really”.

@Arrendis

There’s no backtracking there whatsoever. Please, demonstrate it.

I’m waiting. Where’s the backtracking? You make an accusation, you should be able to back it up.

[pete_Kado]

Tranquility							5 scoops (*5)
							2 havester (*2)
			cycle (s)	Yield (m3)	m3/s		1 ship m3/s
5 turret ship/ lv5 venture	Gas Cloud Scoop I	Tech I	30	10	0.333333333		1.666666667
	Gas Cloud Scoop II	Tech II	40	20	0.5		2.5
	Syndicate Gas Cloud Scoop	Faction	30	20	0.666666667		3.333333333
Barge	Gas Cloud Harvester I	Tech I	200	100	0.5		1
	Gas Cloud Harvester II	Tech II	160	200	1.25		2.5
	ORE Gas Cloud Harvester	Faction	160	200	1.25		2.5
what it should be							5 scoops (*5)
							2 havester (*2)
			cycle (s)	Yield (m3)	m3/s		1 ship m3/s
Barge	Gas Cloud Harvester I	Tech I	120	100	0.833333333		1.666666667
	Gas Cloud Harvester II	Tech II	160	200	1.25		2.5
	ORE Gas Cloud Harvester	Faction	120	200	1.666666667		3.333333333


could the T1 gas harvesters please be brought in line with the gas scoops, it seams t2 is fine but currently t1 harvesters are terrible. 5 t1 scoops are 66% better than 2 harvesters. could the time of t1 and faction harvesters be set to 120s?

[Zuccini_Vaselini]

@Aisha_Katalen

no one got time for THAT.

CCP gave this some good thought (for once)

How to come up with the most tedious, boring, uninteresting gameplay possible.
Cant wait to see what CCP comes up with as punishment for rejecting gun compression.

[Thematic_Chaos_Eto]

Only CCP could mess up so badly that you get punished because you trained into something supposedly better - by making it actually much worse… You can see them laughing as they worked out what they were going to do…

[Aisha_Katalen]

@Arrendis

I’m waiting. Where’s the backtracking?

@Arrendis

LOL. Barges gon’ die. I don’t care if you’ve got friends protecting you, when 2 dozen bombers come out of a wormhole and warp in on top of their cloaky tackle-scout, they’re gonna alpha barges, no problem.

@Arrendis

but pre-patch, a ship worth 20x what a well-fitted Hulk costs that mined roughly 3x what a single hulk mined… that doesn’t seem ‘oppressive’.

@Arrendis

So there really isn’t an argument to be made for ‘they were mining too much’, since Hulks, now, are mining basically the same amount. Only, you know with a lot more clicking. And where you’re seeing ‘active gameplay’… frankly, no.

So you have a ship that “isn’t gonna die” to “2 dozen bombers”, mines 3 times as much as the other best option and takes pretty much no effort, is easily scalable due requiring far less clicks and attention. In short easily AFKable, FAR more safe under an umbrella AND mines 3 times as much.

These are all your own words.

Yet somehow:

@Arrendis

And exactly how was the Rorq ‘oppresive’?

[Aisha_Katalen]

@Zuccini_Vaselini

How to come up with the most tedious, boring, uninteresting gameplay possible.

If you don’t like the activity of mining, stop doing it. Problem solved. Leave it to people who do enjoy it. I’ve you’ve been doing it because it was easy afk money that scales laughably well with multiple accounts then CCP just told they didn’t really like that very much, and nor did the normal miners who made less profits because of afk mining farms dumping it on the market.

[Arrendis]

2 dozen bombers are, in fact, a threat to rorqs, they’re just not going to get alpha’d. They won’t die in a single torpedo salvo the way barges will.

As for ‘FAR more safe’… the idea is there’s a Rorq on-field with the subcaps, remember? PANIC makes every subcap in range completely invulnerable.

Barges are going to die. Rorqs die, too. Especially AFK rorqs.

Still not seeing how the fact that something worth 20x as much was getting 3x the performance was ‘oppressive’. Nor any backtracking. I’ve been pretty consistent in my analysis of things, with some slight variations because CCP changed what they were planning, and then changed again what they actually released.

So where’s the backtracking?