Wardecs are not the problem

[Gadget_Helmsdottir]

Who’s we, kimosabe?

–Confused Gadget

[MinerArt]

@Gadget_Helmsdottir

Who’s we, kemosabe?

–Confused Gadget

We the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have done so much for so long with so little, we are now qualified to do anything with nothing.

I know how to play this game with no isk. I know where to go to get a blueprint to build with. I know 30 points to get materials that are for T2 ships without paying for them (yar har har) and yet still I see that there is merely noob corp, or target. Nothing in the middle. Nothing to get your feet wet. Nothing to teach you how to start with low sec. Nothing to teach you the importance of allies and friends. Nothing to show you the agony of betrayal or loss before you risk everything for nothing.

We have had this ancient cliff like learning curve since release. What is difficult about actually owning a station anyway? There are tons of them scattered all over.

[Ralph_King-Griffin]

so just you then, gotcha.

btw im not saying that there isnt an issue here, war is quite dysfunctional right now, fuckknows iv been harping on about it for near on two years now.

my point is though , wars are so trivially avoided as to be pretty much voluntary already.

[MinerArt]

@Ralph_King-Griffin

my point is though , wars are so trivially avoided as to be pretty much voluntary already.

logs in game, creates a noob, trains level 1 corp management, makes corp, declares war, sets character to biomass

Yes… You can already start wars pretty much ANYTIME. Lets just add a little difficulty to it. What’s the worst that can happen? You lose a station?

[Ralph_King-Griffin]

@MinerArt

logs in game, creates a noob, trains level 1 corp management, makes corp, declares war, sets character to biomass

whats your point here?

@MinerArt

What’s the worst that can happen? You lose a station?

The Sack of Romi
look at the battlereport in there (i was logi, hence not showing up in it) and honestly tell me that a bunch of bears could pull that sort of support out of their arse on short notice.
you want structure based wars Thats what you will need.

[Anne_Dieu-le-veut]

I don’t know how you prevent crap corps from forming. Really only thing I can think of that might help is put a minimum age on a character to be CEO. Other than that, it’s up to the players to weed out the crap ones via war decs and AWOXs

[Gadget_Helmsdottir]

Actually, I wish that there was some real way of adding in the social aspects of the game to the tutorial.
Unfortunately, those skills cannot be easily transferred via Aura and friends. They can show you what it looks like when everything looks right, and that’s about it.

To learn the social skills of EvE (slightly different than RL social skills, but that’s a completely different topic) a player’s best practice is to join in a noob-friendly corp that is designed to teach the greater aspects of EvE.

Even then, some of these corps teach different things, just like any school. Players are likely to learn different interpretations of lessons in Karmafleet than they would learn in EvE Uni. That’s actually fine in my book.

The big questions are:

• Which corps would you set as ‘teaching’ corps?
• How do you get new players to these corps?
• How do you get new players to ANY corps?
• How can this system be abused (because it will)?
• Should this be an official or unofficial system?
• If official, should this system be an option or automatic?
• What about home schooling?

–Gadget usually generates more questions than answers

[MinerArt]

@Ralph_King-Griffin

The Sack of Romi

look at the battlereport in there (i was logi, hence not showing up in it) and honestly tell me that a bunch of bears could pull that sort of support out of their arse on short notice.

you want structure based wars Thats what you will need.

You want to know what this is? No. It is not about the structure based warfare. We can completely ignore the structure and you can still war dec any corp on the face of new eden. Or we can finally put some “accountability” in there. Remember? First post of the entire thread?

@Solonius_Rex

We dont need a wardec nerf, we need a corporation creation nerf. We need to stop stupid people from creating crap corporations for little to no risk to themselves. We need accountability. We need responsibility.

So you want this accountability then you need risk. The easiest way to make this not a crap shoot is to tie the ability to declare war to something. Make these “noob corps” able to step up and make their station. Make these “noob corps” have something to lose or win. Make these citadels, or engineering complexes, or hell lets even throw the refinery in there as PART of a war.

Give us something worth fighting or defending. Attack and defense all have zero accountability. You can’t add one without adding the other. You can’t end a corp without risking part of your own.

Equal steps for both or no steps for either in this field. Take it or leave it. If you’re not willing to risk your corp to end another corp you don’t have anything to say in the matter. It’s WAR. Not “but you can’t actually do anything back because I risked nothing but isk” games.

[Gadget_Helmsdottir]

Using the must-own-a-station-to-declare-war concept, if my mining corp wants to remove a nuisance refinery that set up shop in OUR HS system without permission, how could we attack it without being able to declare war - assuming we’re operating out of an NPC station?

Yes, yes, this is fantasy, but you test rules by taking them to the nth degree to see where they break.

–Curious Gadget

[JuuR_Zibaoo]

@Solonius_Rex

Who said anything about fighting?

so … everything stays the same as it is … like … nothing happens if a war is declared
what is a war good for … can you explanin?

JuuR

[Ralph_King-Griffin]

@MinerArt

You want to know what this is? No. It is not about the structure based warfare. We can completely ignore the structure and you can still war dec any corp on the face of new eden. Or we can finally put some “accountability” in there. Remember? First post of the entire thread?

We put that thing up to see if that would happen,
You the only people who took a shot at it?
Big mercs.
You’re all fire and brimstone but if you’re not able to isolate and overwhelm one of them in a t3, what makes you think you can take a structure of theirs?

And scroll down, the first post in that thread was misspelled.

[MinerArt]

@Gadget_Helmsdottir

Using the must-own-a-station-to-declare-war concept, if my mining corp wants to remove a nuisance refinery that set up shop in OUR HS system without permission, how could we attack it without being able to declare war - assuming we’re operating out of an NPC station?

Yes, yes, this is fantasy, but you test rules by taking them to the nth degree to see where they break.

–Curious Gadget

I am FULLY in favor of testing the rules to see where they break.

If you wish to “claim” a system you best have at the minimum a citadel in it. If not then you really haven’t got a claim do you? You could just ask someone with a citadel in the system to war dec them and join their side of the war. You could build one of tiny size and do the war dec yourself. You don’t need more than an Astrahus (oh, and the item that will be the war dec enabler, I assume this would be like a service module but lets leave the programing to programmers.)

Assuming you actually successfully eliminate this competition you have 3 options.

1: Leave the location blank, which would be unable to be built upon for a minimum of the war dec time left by the defenders. You or the corp who declared war have earned that space.

2: Anchor your own station. This would be required of either your corp or the other corp if someone else declared war. Nothing stops this from being attacked by the defenders to attempt to reclaim the spot. They would need a station still somewhere for their corp HQ to be to do this.

3: End the war and give it to someone else entirely. Ending the war would open the door for anyone to take the spot. Friends, enemies, Sanshas, Astral Mining, etc.

What did we forget? What you gain/lose for that war.
Assume the defenders were rich in minerals but poor in isk. Well anything in these corp hangars might just drop. Including an isk crate of a corporate wallet percentage. Better get that freighter to warp in and scoop whatever it can. Or just blow it all up. I don’t care. It’s your choice.

Is this defender who lost a station without an office anywhere else? No more corp. ENTIRE corp wallet gets transferred to the one that declared war that isn’t in the loot crate. Member hangars become asset safety and corp hangars deliver to the (now ex-) CEO for whatever didn’t get stolen in the loot crate. Shame on you, Shame on your cow.

Is this defender with a corp office in an npc station but without a station anywhere else? Can’t declare war on anyone. All declared wars end in surrender because the wardec module doesn’t exist anymore. Defender wars remain in effect. Asset safety delivers to that station (pay the piper his due) but the corp doesn’t die until the corp wallet does. Office rental costs in an NPC station remain the same. To burn their wallet out you have to play “economic warfare” now… Sorry.

[Solonius_Rex]

@Gadget_Helmsdottir

What extra penalties would you add?

Creating/making a corp already has costs as described earlier. Would the prospective CEO need to pass some sort of test? Administered by who?

What penalty would you have for leaving a “crap” corp you found yourself in.

And if a player found herself stuck in one of those crap corps, would the player rather leave EvE than spend her donated time stuck in a corp she hates?

A million and some odd isk, and an hours time of training is not a “Cost” of creating a corp. I lose a hundred times that much in taxes alone from trading in a day.

For starters, creating a corp should cost more. Much, much more. Id be happy with anything above a billion isk. Training time should also be more close to 20-30 days instead of the 1 hour we currently have.

Leaving a corp anytime is fine, but you shouldnt be able to rejoin another corp for a set amount of time. Id be happy with 1 week. And it would be nice if CCP would also include that as a pop-up warning when you click “Apply to corporation” so that people who apply to corps will be warned that they should choose their corp wisely.

That or add a jump-fatigue sort of system, where the more you corp-jump, the more time must elapse between rejoining new corps.

For the CEO, the penalties should be much harsher. Infact, im inclined to say that a CEO should not being able to leave their corp they created, for a very long time, months, even maybe a year. Of course, you can try making an Alt and spend 30+ days and 1 billion isk to create a corp, but atleast thats a substantially larger investment than what is currently the state of corporations.

@Gadget_Helmsdottir

Um… got any numbers on this? I’d like to see the surveys - and I would seriously question your random sampling.

I interact with a lot of miners.

@Gadget_Helmsdottir

In the end, perhaps the question is about tastes a bit. Whereas you find mining boring, I find it soothing.

More importantly, soothing enough to actually DO IT, and not be AFK. I will admit to sometimes reading other things while mining in EvE (I don’t watch anything else, but that may be just me), and my eyes are on my screen at all times - unless I take a risk and physically leave the keyboard for a short time (bio, drink, etc.).

I’m not going to project my way of thinking to countless others - especially without good numbers and proper surveys. I assume I’m not entirely alone, but I might just be some weird aberration that likes mining. Without this information, I would really like for people to cool it with the ‘Change the Thing I Don’t Do’ mentality. Offer a suggestion for something that you participate in by all means.

Meh, apparently it’s a jazz day at work today, as I just wrote a book called Music, EvE, and You. I’m sure by the end of the week, my door will be thumpin’ - idiocy tends to gravitate to Friday around these parts.

I never said that no one likes mining. There are people who like fat chicks, and im not going to tell them what they can and cannot like. Consensus doesnt mean 100%. Majority doesnt mean there isnt a minority. But i am a somewhat frequent ganker of miners. I always open chat windows and send messages to them. And i never seem to run out of targets when i log in.

Youre just running off of your experience, and Im running off of mine. But im almost certain ive had more contact with other miners than you have. And im certain that the group im with, has had more contact with miners than you have.

But i still have a hard time believing you. Not about how you find mining fun/enjoyable/relaxing, but that we would both disagree that given the chance, most new players who just enter the game would find mining a boring activity that they AFK while doing so, and that most players would AFK mine in hisec if it werent for a certain notorious group that has largely made mining a far more dangerous occupation than it used to be.

[Solonius_Rex]

@Rexxar_Santaro

We need Wardec nerf;
People, which can work at PC and have installed a game aren’t stupid. They are rooky (aka noobs) as you are completely noob in, lets say, a Large Hadron Collider operator;
We don’t need responsibility from rooky point of view. It’s a fu-king game. Isn’t it? It’s not an Atomic station console; maybe…

and overall, EVE rookies can say “Solonius Rex should not enter in any bowling hall in US”.

Not talking about everyone in corp, were talking about CEOs of that Corp.

Again, why do people keep bringing up that this is a game? Do people not play games in order to garner enjoyment and pleasure? I dont understand, i thought EVE was a game where you want to have fun, and not a place where its basically your second job.

And yes, we certainly do need responsibility from a rooky point of view. We need the leaders of said corps who lead the rookies, to be capable and responsible. CCP has said a while back that the interaction of players, of joining a good corp and the social aspect of EVE was largely responsible and an important aspect of new players staying in the game. Good corps need good leaders, who, you know, lead the corp and the rookies, and not just dock up and afk for a week to wait for the war to end.

[Sere_O_Asis]

I’ve been following a number of ganking threads, so ganking is “on my mind” at the moment. But, would not this approach result in more ganking?

Some wars come about due to grudges, and if in fact there was a grudge involved between two parties, neither of which owned a structure of some sort, what would be the result? How could they settle their conflict?

Would ganking be an acceptable substitute, to you, were your suggestions to be adopted?

Or have you got another means to settle a conflict between two parties when neither party has a structure, under your proposal?

And yes, I know you mentioned asking “someone with a citadel in the system” to war dec on your behalf, but that is either an expensive request or a really big favor to ask.

[Solonius_Rex]

@MinerArt

I gave you the full explanation of the enemy tactics and your answer was you don’t know what the enemy tactics are and as such can’t figure out a condition to win the war.

No, you didnt. You were talking about a scenario that involved a corp from nullsec with 1 character docked up somewhere and people piling on to get kills. Now, granted, i was a bit confused by the wording of your sentence, and couldnt really understand who you were talking about when you said “people only jump in to get an easy kill”.

But thats why i prefaced my answer, with the scenario i was discussing, and had started the discussion with in my first post.

But let me post it here, just for reference sake:

@Solonius_Rex

No, were talking about corps that actually have standing members in hisec that wardec smaller corps to grief or get easy kills or for whatever reason want to inflict pain and suffering.

@MinerArt

I never said “mining corp” so you added that in. Your answer is still go sit on the toilet carebear and let the men kick you out of the game. You didn’t look for an answer when the answer was pretty much given. Sadly even if I went out to that nul sec area with my fleet and blew up the station because nobody defends it I would still be stuck in this 1 man alt corp war dec until they decide to join with their mains and gank something. Because it’s a reward with zero penalty and no risk it can be done anywhere, at any time, regardless of the defenders strength or weakness.

I have a hard time understanding the rest of this paragraph. I never said that you should “Let the men kick you out of the game”. Nor do I understand what you mean by “You didnt look for an answer when the answer was pretty much given”.

The reason why i wrote “I dont know”, is because i dont know the state of the corp being wardecced. Do you have just miners? Or do you have people who are actively willing to fight back? What is the state of your corporation? How much isk are you willing to spend? All of these questions factor into what you want to get out of the war, and more importantly, whether or not you are even fit to lead a corp to begin with.

@MinerArt

I consider it an exploit that needs to be closed. If you have nothing to defend and you just attack all day every day whenever the odds are only in your favor and completely hide otherwise you’re not in a war. There is no victory and there is no loss. There is only how much isk someone is willing to throw around to ruin someones day. Considering how many TRILLIONS of isk float around 50 million is chump change and easy.

Well, victory is what you make it. We will go out Blopsing and kill a single tristan and say “Op success” cause we killed something.

If a group that does nothing but attack and attack and attack all day, considers inflicting the same amount of damage as the wardec cost, or mining tears from that attack, a victory, then op success. They won the war. It all depends on how the player views things.

[Solonius_Rex]

@Anderson_Geten

You did use it in that way.

Not really, but k.

@Anderson_Geten

I’ve been from the beginning.

Doesnt seem like it, but k.

@Anderson_Geten

You consider whatever you want. I tell you some people enjoy the activity of mining. Your opinion, or the consensus opinion or whatever, does not make it an absolute truth.

You still havent addressed my arguments, by the way.

[Anderson_Geten]

@Solonius_Rex

You still havent addressed my arguments, by the way.

Your argument ? There was none to address. Since you finally agree that people are not stupid when they mine but achieve a goal, I don’t have anything to add. You know your words were rude.
The fact that they enjoy the gameplay or not is irrelevant. When going for a goal, enjoyment is not in the gameplay . I can make money farming relic sites in wormholes, and enjoy it ; or more by farming AFK haven. I rather farm havens. I actually “mine” bounties in havens. And then I pay for ships I don’t mind to lose in fleets - because I spent some time to farm them.
The fun fact is I can lose ships when defending mining fleets. I enjoy the feeling some people are building things thanks to me.

[Solonius_Rex]

@Anderson_Geten

Since you finally agree that people are not stupid when they mine

@Solonius_Rex

greater consensus of mining is that its a tedious, boring activity

Never said people are stupid. I said the activity of mining is boring and stupid.

Maybe you should brush up on your reading comprehension skills before accusing others of doing something.

Infact, thats kinda rude, dont you think.

[Kannibal_Kane]

Wardec vs Watchlist:

Wardec and Watchlist should remain separate.
Purchasing Wardec enables legal conflict.
Purchasing Watchlist enables, well, Watchlist.

You dont need to buy a Wardec to buy a Watchlist, or vice versa.

I wouls suggest you keep them together. One if the primary reason that… that Fozzie null sec friendly dude (wanted to say tard but decided to be nice) had it removed is because the watchlists was used to keep an eye on certain Cap pilots (Remember the story of the guys that waited a year?). By separating the two you add that issue back into the game again and since the CSM and powerblocks seem to have some sort of disgusting hold (fozzie) on how certain mechanics play out they will cry again. Kepp them together.