What is Eve Online?

[Koyaan_i_Squatchi]

Some say games aren’t RL but some of the tenets do bridge the two “realities”.

I’ve been around long enough to realize that when a lot of people start talking about “something is gonna happen”, they start believing it and if public opinion sways in a certain way, that “something” indeed DOES happen.

This works on a small group scale all the way up to a global one, including education to war and everything in between. The Borg Concept was an idea born of the reality - science fiction mirrors what we don’t want to see or understand.

WE are creating the reality in EVE, not the devs.

[Scoflo_Rotineque]

This is simply wrong, the Devs have created this world and every change they make impacts on how we interact with it.

[Koyaan_i_Squatchi]

Exactly

[Ax_l_Thorne]

EvE game where Ax’l smash big rock with little rock. Big rock go boom.

Big rock cry on forums and say Ax’l cheat with little rock and game people should nerf little rock.

[Kezrai_Charzai]

@Shipwreck_Jones

what is Eve Online? What are the core pillars on which it is built?

Your question is a bit vague. EVE is a lot of different things in a lot of ways. What version of EVE are you asking about?

• Is it the fake, Hollywood version CCP videos try to market to the public?
• Is it the spin-doctored version CCP devblogs try to sell to existing players in hopes of more subs?
• Is it the rose-colored “exists only in their imagination” version proposed by the “EVE was great back in my day” crowd?
• Is it “what EVE should be, if only CCP would make an attempt at living up to their hype and promises instead of constantly tearing down their own game?”

Or are you looking for “what actually is EVE right now, warts and all, if looked at objectively?”

Because if I answer that one honestly you know you’re just gonna call me a hater bittervet, rather than a player who would actually just like to see CCP step up and provide the game they keep saying they’ll provide.

[tutucox_Khamsi]

EVE online is any game who identifies as EVE online

[Altara_Zemara]

@Shipwreck_Jones

what is Eve Online?

Tom & Jerry meet Wile E Coyote and chase Bambi and Road Runner…all in outer space.

[Gaming513_Tyler]

@Shipwreck_Jones

Answers should be 2 pages, double spaced, and in MLA format. And no, wikipedia does not count as a source.

Provide me an avenue of contacting you that allows me to upload a .docx file then, nerd

[Mr_Epeen]

@Mr_Epeen

It just shows you think the rules don’t apply to you.

It seems they don’t. Nothing like selective moderation to kill a game forum.

Mr Epeen

[Shipwreck_Jones]

Hello Ully,

Thank you for your response.

As for the denigration and contempt thing… well… I don’t intentionally try to do it, and sometimes people do misread me, but I do have contempt for certain players, and I have no doubt that it comes through in posts.

Now, am I wrong to have contempt for these players? Well, let me put it this way, I have just as much right to my anger towards bitter vets who sabotage this game and its community, as do the bitter vets have towards CCP -if not more. And that’s because I honestly believe that they are doing far more damage, that some are doing it on purpose, and that it is easier for them to stop, than it is for CCP to magically make a game that makes everyone happy all the time.

Has CCP made mistakes? Of course. In fact, I have my own complaints. But nothing they have ever done has sabotaged my ability to have fun in the same way that listening to bitter vets did. Focusing on the negative was neither fun, nor productive, and made me look at everything in the worst possible light. You think I would have know better, but somehow I still allowed myself to fall into the trap.

Perhaps @Xuixien can chime in here, as he is (iirc) a psychology grad student IRL.

I’m not a psychologist, and may very well be at the peak of Mt. Stupid on this one, but I am a former sergeant of Marines, and I have seen first hand how bad morale can tear through a unit like a disease. And, it doesn’t just undermine unit effectiveness, or make people unhappy, it literally changes how they look at things. There comes a point where people can only see the negative and interpret anything that is ambiguous or nuanced as decidedly and absolutely bad.

So, when people sit around sabotaging not just themselves, but newbros, the community, and the game as a whole, it pisses me off. They blame CCP for everything that happens to the player count, while refusing to take one ounce of responsibility for their own actions.

• Do I have contempt for them? Yarp
• Do they deserve it? Yarp
• Am I fighting against their sabotage in the best way? I don’t knarp

By the way, I find it interesting that so many players from so many different MMO’s paint an earlier version as being overwhelmingly better. Well, depending on how you look at it, they are kind of right. Preferences are subjective. And, it doesn’t matter what anyone else thinks, if you like a particular version of something, you’re going to think that that was the best possible version. Moreover, many, many changes in game design have trade offs. So, it’s quite possible that you preferred one set of tradeoffs over the other.

However, I also think that there are plenty of extra-thick, rose-tinted glasses being worn. For example, you hold up 2003-2009 as the best version of Eve? Well, that’s funny, because I’ve heard players cheer as CCP announced changes at fanfest 2009 (the oldest fanfest recording I can find). There were also approximately 1,800 player suggestions for changes made between June 2003 and December 2009. And, from what I can gather, there was a lot of people complaining about stuff back then too. The difference between then and now (well, from what I can tell by casually skimming through 19 year old forum posts), was not that everyone was happy with the state of the game, but that there weren’t a bunch a bitter vets sabotaging themselves and the community.

[Shipwreck_Jones]

Well, I didn’t want to prompt people. So, that’s why I was vague.

Also, there’s a difference between being unhappy with the service at a restaurant, and throwing a fit like a karen, and asking for staff to be fired. I have never, not once said nor implied that not liking something about the game, or the game as a whole made anyone a bitter vet. To me, being a bitter vet is about being relentlessly negative, and sabotaging yourself, the community, and the game. In fact, the last video on my channel discusses my unhappiness with CCP monetization efforts. It was the last video on my channel the first time we had this conversation as well.

Yet, when I call out people for acting like space karens, some people accuse me of toxic positivity, burying my head in the sand, or trying to paint anyone with a complaint as a bitter vet. There is no evidence to support this, and plenty of evidence to the contrary. I think the real reason why people make these baseless accusations is because they don’t like being called karens.

You have complaints and concerns? Me too. Don’t let me dissuade you from saying them. But if anyone wants to act like a space karen, then they shouldn’t be surprised when they get called out on it.

[ResonanceOfWar]

Eve is Pandora’s box, apon opening it you are transported into a fantasy land. Where you become something you always wished you were. But when you try to escape that fantasy, you realize that everything around you is already burning that this box cannot close and that your rl was the sacrificial piece to conjure this alternate reality. (Kidding obviously)

[Altara_Zemara]

@Shipwreck_Jones

The difference between then and now (well, from what I can tell by casually skimming through 19 year old forum posts), was not that everyone was happy with the state of the game, but that there weren’t a bunch a bitter vets sabotaging themselves and the community.

When people become old and jaded with a game, they cannot bear to think that new people who will be there long after they are gone may have a better time. So they invent some mythical golden age that is safe from all those noobs and where they can reign supreme in some era that will never be surpassed.

[Destiny_Corrupted]

People really overuse the term “bitter vet” for this game. In order to be a “vet” of anything, you actually have to have experienced it in some capacity. Someone who’s done nothing but run the same set of high-sec missions for 15 years, or mine the same asteroid belts in the same system all that time, is a vet of nothing. They’re in no way different from players who have performed the same activity for just three months. Being a vet means you’ve engaged in a wide scope of gameplay activities, and that your perspective is greater than the smallest subdivision of game understanding that’s possible to achieve.

[MB_ThePhotographer]

It also occurs to almost no one that when I joined in 08, there were already bitter old vets who at that time in the game, I accepted that I would never be able to catch up to in sp. I just knew I could out play them.

[Kezrai_Charzai]

@Shipwreck_Jones

I have never, not once said nor implied that not liking something about the game, or the game as a whole made anyone a bitter vet. To me, being a bitter vet is about being relentlessly negative, and sabotaging yourself, the community, and the game.

Really? Methinks thou protest too much. Because you know I can link multiple replies of yours to first-time posters where you bring out the ‘bittervet’ labelling to continue your little jihad. Hard to be ‘relentlessly negative’ in your first post.

Like Qia Kare, I’m becoming uncertain of your motivation here. Because it’s starting to look like you posted bait for negative opinions so you can trot out various anti- idiot/troll/bittervet flag waving.

I also note that at almost the first opportunity, when somebody says “CCP reduced the value of my play time”, you again trotted out the “bitter vets are killing the game, don’t listen to them” argument.

And then you did it again. And then you posted another giant illustrated post against ‘bittervets’.

So really it’s just starting to look like an excuse for you to get out your hobbyhorse and ride off in all directions on your crusade.

To address your OP rather than your actual purpose in the thread, you should first consider that “What is EVE?” is a matter of perception to various groups. For better or worse, right or wrong, the way a group of players perceives EVE is EVE, to them.

So you’re either naive, disingenuous or simply ignorant in dismissing Mr Epeen’s post about EVE being the place to make money off the griefers who get banned from other games. EVE was literally started and planned by that gaming element who wanted the “lawless”, PKing, griefing parts of Ultima Online to have a home elsewhere.

CCP advertises EVE specifically as being the place where you can attack and smash other people’s gameplay. CCP says “bring us your gankers, your griefers, your socially maladjusted, yearning to be free to attack defenseless targets and mine all the salt you can, because in EVE, you make your own rules”.

This is a real perception that’s held by a significant number of players both within EVE and in the wider community of gamers. EVE is the place where PKers roam free and even get congratulated that they’re playing “the real EVE, hard-core and grim”.

Just how big any of those groups are, and just what proportion of EVE players are the folks who would get banned from other games, is open to debate. The numbers could be anywhere from insignificant to quite noticeable, but it’s a valid perception of “What is EVE?” either way.

I’ll post on some other “EVE”'s later when I have a little more time.

[Aiko_Danuja]

@Kezrai_Charzai

“bitter vets are killing the game

It’s true, and you can be a better vet from the start - some noobs are born as bitter vets, because it’s not really about being a “vet”, it’s just about being constantly bitter.

[MB_ThePhotographer]

So let me get this straight. Because I’m a 08 player, I’m automatically a bitter old vet? I respect a lot of players who post even though I might not agree with everything they say. I gave out over 2 bil in the forums to those I thought worthy of the help. Even Silly, much to my own embarrassment. Why is it wrong to wish that the game could attain the numbers it had before? Blaming the bitter old vets for anything is just Cilla/Silly. Vent your anger at CCP please, I did nothing to bring the game to where it is now.

EVE was better off a niche game. The only whining back then was the 2 day downtimes combined with a 24hr skill queue. Try eating your way through learning skills. I want those back just to weed out the weak.

So there…

Edit; The players asked for a F’ed up game and they got it.

[Shipwreck_Jones]

I didn’t bait players into saying things I could argue with. I asked people, “what is Eve Online,” not “what’s wrong with Eve Online,” or “what makes you upset about Eve Online?” But people went there because that’s how focused on the negative they are.

It wasn’t a trick question, and it wasn’t bait. I actually wanted to hear what players thought were the pillars of Eve Online because I was going to talk about it in my video (of course, I now think I’m going to reduce this section down to a paragraph or two).

Anyway, I have an adversarial respect for you as an interlocutor. Unlike people like Lucas Kell and Brewlar Kuvakei, you are a skilled an cunning debater who isn’t above using dirty debate tricks to further their agenda.

I think your whole “provide evidence” kick was brilliant. I mean, you say you care about evidence, but you’re not above promoting full on conspiracy theories (right or wrong, you have no evidence to prove it, only speculations), and certainly don’t ask bitter vets to cite their sources when they make all sorts of wild accusations. So, you can try to pretend like you’re all about healthy skepticism, evidence, and citing sources, but I know you’re not, because you only seem to care when it suits you. It is really smart though. It puts people in a tough spot. If they don’t go hunting for evidence, you can claim that they make assertions without any sort of evidence. And if they spend hours making excel spread sheets and hunting down quotes, they’ll accomplish nothing but waste their time and fatigue themselves. Because you’re just going to shift the goal posts as soon as they do.

And what’s more, you know that when it comes to certain things, it’s damn near impossible to provide evidence. For example, most people don’t sit around recording team speak comms on the off chance that they might one day have to prove that there are people who knowingly sabotage the game. And it’s hard to provide quotes of the most egregious space karen behavior, because it tends to get removed through forum moderation. But you already know this. You know how the forum works.

You also have your whole you-label-everyone-with-a-complaint-as-a- bittervet thing. Now, instead of discussing the very real damage that they do the game, we’re discussing whether I make broad generalizations or am guilty of toxic positivity. And it doesn’t matter that the supporting evidence is flimsy, or the contradictory evidence is strong. Because, you don’t care about the truth. You have an agenda, you’re cunning, and you’re not above using bad faith arguments.

Now, I could be wrong, because you do not openly admit it. But I suspect that you are an intentional saboteur. Of course, a lot of people sabotage newbros and the community without realizing it. But I want to make a clear distinction here. Some people sabotage the game on purpose, with even a few of them openly admitting it. So, I suspect that you fall in the latter category. But, if I’m wrong, and this isn’t the case, you might want to ask yourself what it is exactly you’re accomplishing with your posting on these forums. Because there appears to be a big disconnect between what you’re trying to do, and what you’re actually doing.

Later fellow forum PvP’er

[Mr_Epeen]

Aiko quotes Kezrai quoting Shipwreck and y’all are acting like it was Kezrai that said it.

Don’t shame Kezrai. Shame the guy she was calling out.

Mr Epeen