He sees it as a disadvantage that any repper will consume more cap if you leave it run all the time at a higher skill level, and he believes no skill should have any possible disadvantage for being at a higher level. The only issue I have with this position is the presumption there is some penalty other than having to flip the module on and off now and then if you want to manage the cap usage to less than the maximum, but since he can only hurt himself I decided it wasn’t worth more effort than has already been spent. He either gets it and doesn’t want to lose an internet argument after calling everyone stupid, or he doesn’t. Whatever floats his boat.
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I’m glad you’re not an Eve game designer.
This isn’t how Eve works. Just having a bigger and more expensive ship doesn’t give you a commensurate advantage. Most battleship fits are ineffective against smaller targets for good reason - Eve is about play and counterplay not just buying a bigger ship and therefore winning.
Uhhh. No.
Absolutely incorrect. Battleships are awesome when used for roles in which a battleship excels. Check zkill yourself.
Instead of demanding the mechanics be changed to fit what you feel it should be in ignorance, please learn the mechanics.
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Like ‘Rapid Launch’ eating up more missiles per time? People really should avoid all RoF skills in the game, so many two-edged swords. 
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Maybe CCP should develop a Slow Paced Missile Launcher that fires at half the rate of regular launchers just for the OP. 
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Apparently there had been a debate raging about whether who was right or wrong and a tally on the number of hearts that somehow managed to distract fellow Capsuleers.
I understand what he’s saying, or at least I think I do. I try not to get mired too deeply in matters of opinion. I think that managing the cap use of a repper is trivial, but that is my subjective experience and I want to remain open to people who may feel differently. Thus do I stick to the objective statement that the repper has no disadvantage other than having to actively manage it. I go to a lot of trouble to be diplomatic, but I get frustrated when, in spite of that effort, I am accused of arguing in bad faith and there is no upside to winning a forum battle worth that experience.
Rapid lights? The missile launcher that doesn’t even consume capacitor?
You’re seriously comparing rate of fire, in and of itself, to GJ/s used? Of course you’re not. I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and not insult your intelligence. I’m sure you fully understand how silly and ignorant you sound. Such a bad faith actor.
Why would you have to actively manage it in your scenario?
Again, I’ll ask this simple question: If there was a skill that just increased capacitor GJ/s consumed by a module; would that be a downside (i.e. drawback)? Yes or No?
Now if you ignore this question or give me a word salad to deflect from the obvious, you can’t cry because I call you out for being dishonest in your reply. Because your need to avoid the question tells me you understand, but are consciously dodging a point you cannot contend with.
Well, when you ignore the premise and repeatedly argue a strawman, what do you expect? If the premise I actually present is a specific scenario in which incoming damage exceeds armor amount restored per cycle, wherein lies the time to manage the repper? You’re already losing armor each cycle. Stopping the repper at any time just speeds up the rate in which you lose armor HPs. But instead of addressing this you keep defaulting to a strawman scenario in which you can turn it off and on with no consequence because, presumably, the incoming DPS is less than the armor amount being repped per cycle. That’s not the scenario I presented, and you know it. At no point did I make a general claim that higher level Repair Systems skill was universally inferior to lower level skill. Yet, that is exactly what you would have to be insinuating in order to counter me by stating, “Just manage it by turning it off from time to time”. Because that reply does not fit with the scenario I presented.
Just look at the guy above comparing missile launcher rate of fire to GJ/s expended. Would you disagree that Syzygium is replying in bad faith? Note that Uriel the Flame does not call him out either, but goes along with it, making himself look just as ignorant of basic game mechanics.
Either the person with the low skill is dead, or the person with the higher skill has time to turn off the repper. If Mr. Skill Level 1 needs 11 cycles by x time to survive, then Mr. Skill Level 3 can get 11 cycles of repair in 10 of Mr. Level 1’s cycles, allowing them to turn the repper off while Mr. Level 1 is running his 11th cycle before turning it on again. If Mr. Level 3 needs to leave his repper on to get a 12th cycle of HP to survive, then Mr. Level 1 would be dead because it’s impossible for him to get 12 cycles of repair in that time frame.
Apples to apples. The cost of a cycle is the same. The amount repaired is the same. The amount of capacitor consumed per second on average /if you leave it run all the time/ is higher, and the amount of HP/s you repair over time is higher, so if you don’t need the extra you can turn it off. If you turn it off the average capacitor it consumes over time drops and differs from the one you see on the fitting window.
If the repper had the same cost for a cycle and repair amount, but a cycle time of instant, it would have infinite cap usage on the fitting window, but I’d bet you few would call it a disadvantage or expect that it would instantly drain their capacitor because the fitting window told them so.
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I have compared two skills that have a “disadvantage” on paper. Firing missiles faster of course increase your costs for ammo and brings you into reload faster. You will have made more overall damage in the same time, like a faster repper repairs more armor.
Your argumentation of keeping the skill at level I for “saving capacitor” (while also losing armor rep amount in the same time) is like putting a small repper on a marauder because it eats even less capacitor (of course also while repairing a lot less armor, but you don’t seem to care for the repped amount anyway). You could even argue to use no repper at all and just fit buffer, because that uses zero cap for zero armor repaired. Thats really awesome for capstability.
You can wind and dodge all day long, any idea to keep Repair Systems at level I because “it eats less cap then” is just nonsense. Any level above I is simply better and opens up more fitting options that can make your fit even stronger. It is higly suggested to bring that Skill to Level V as soon as possible if flying active tanked armor ships.
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double-edged swords and knives are formidable weapons. however, if you are constantly hurting yourself with them, you should not use them or practice until you can make them work.
i would suggest the latter, because other people competing with you will not hold back because you still use the small wood stick.
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Not true. Again, you make up your own STRAWMAN scenario to argue against. A scenario in which the situation aligns with whatever criteria fits YOUR position. You don’t get to dictate anything because you’re supposed to be arguing against MY scenario. Not YOURS. Your scenario (reps > enemy DPS) is not even being disputed at all. This is about you debunking MY position, which stems from MY scenario. That higher levels SP investments should NEVER under any circumstance be inferior to a lower skill level. I laid out the scenario further up in the thread, which you continue to intentionally ignore.
Low skill person is not dead. There are situations where you are losing health, but not at a critical rate. The incoming DPS and your rep are going not quite tit for tat and you’re operating at a deficit, losing HP each cycle. You don’t just die outright. I’ve been in such a position where I was losing armor slowly and got to a point where I was getting the cap warning alarm. This situation is what made me consider this whole topic. If I had lvl 5, which would have an entire 59s less cap on paper, I would have had to retreat, which is an inferior outcome to finishing the fight then and there. This cap time on paper can’t account for every minutia of module activation and deactivation through a fight, but I did reach low cap and it begs the question. The idea that 3.7 more HP/s at lvl 5 (costing more than double the GJ/s) is going to make this huge difference is absurd and reeks of your total lack of experience. Because the next time I got that same mission, even when OVERHEATING I’d still was having health chip away. Just slower. When overloading at lvl 1 the HP/s increase is 4.09 and the GJ/s used is LESS than at lvl 5 on paper. So even at lvl 5, which would be LESS reps and more GJ/s used compared to overheating, it is not feasible. There would be no time to turn off the repper either at lvl 1 or lvl 5. And my cap would have run out in all likelihood at lvl 5, and I’d have had no HP/s and just got melted as opposed to continuing to be slowly chipped away for longer. Because I had lvl 1 and 59s more capacitor (on paper or not, that translates into practical performance), I was able to run the repper long enough to kill enough foes to lower the incoming DPS to a point where HP compensated tit for tat. And then to a point where HP started to recover. At that point I started to turn off the repper and let the cap replenish.
You’re replies, on top of being in bad faith, also demonstrate a lack of experience in dealing with any content that is not incredibly easy. In your world you either completely dominate the attackers or you die. You’re not qualified to even be discussing this if all you know is doing content for which your ship and fit are grossly overpowered for.
Aaaaaand you ignored the question. So I reiterate: You replying in bad faith. You fully understand you are being dishonest in your reply and are making an intentional conscious choice to ignore my actual points and blow smoke up my you-know-what.
Farewell and take care.
No, I comparing two skill levels in a specific situation. Not in general. Not universally. That’s YOUR strawman. The position I’ve made is that there should be no scenario where a lower skill level is preferrable to a higher skill level that I’ve invest SPs into.
I laid out the specific scenario again, for the second or third time, for Qia Kare in the reply to her above if you have any actual critique of my actual position and reasoning in regard to the specific scenario I’ve brought forth. Otherwise, I won’t continue to discourse with bad faith actors.
Take care.
Yes and no, if i’m sat at 150km you’re not closing that distance before i’ve locked you and popped you, i’ve literally done this
There isn’t. But okay, I wish you good luck with Repair Systems I.
For anyone else reading this topic, especially new players: Please, skill Repair Systems to V as soon as you can if you want to fly active tanked armor boats. It will benefit you greatly!
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This. Also, Tactical Shield Manipulation V is important as well, but you can leave it at IV until you finish the rest of your non-remote shield skills.
Wow, this absurd thread still going on?
And yet again we shall answer: YES. Absent any other effects, this would indeed be a ‘drawback’ as there is no benefit to the skill.
In the case of Repair Systems, there is a clear, tangible, undeniable benefit: you rep faster. The GJ/EHP repaired remains constant while the EHP/s rises. This is not a drawback. This is simply how the skill operates. There are skills that reduce cycle time and capacitor cost of using certain modules. Resistance Phasing for example.
You accuse everyone else of throwing up logical fallacies, and yet here you are with a red herring of your very own.
There is no skill that only increases cap cost. Your argument is not cogent.
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The skill doesn’t affect cost, so there’s no point in going down that road. It just reinforces his belief that it’s relevant when you have to divorce him from that belief to prove the point.
“You can use this module no more than 10 times a minute” is inferior to “You can use this module up to 11 times a minute.” in every way. There is no drawback. You could consider it a drawback if the skill required you to use the module 11 times instead of 10, but it doesn’t. The only possible negative is having to actively make the choice not to run it that 11th time.
at this point its probably safe to assume that he will never understand, or admit why this is a non issue.
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“WE” have never answered “yes”. “WE” have ignored the comment entirely or posted some diversionary word salad. Usually going into some red herring that deviates completely from the point I make. YOU are the first to actually answer the question directly to my recollection.
Okay, so requiring more GJ/s is a drawback. The addition of a benefit doesn’t remove the fact that more cap is used with continuous use, which you have just admitted is a drawback. That is the scenario we are dealing with. If you are talking about pulsing the module on and off, you are OFF TOPIC. Just like DPS rigs have drawbacks in the form of increased power grid need or armor plates have drawbacks in the form of increased align time/slower speed or shield rigs have increased signature radius. These are all downsides. The fact that they have bonuses too and the fact that the downside may not actually be an issue does not negate the fact that they are still drawbacks. That is all I’m saying. I’ve said multiple times that just because there are drawbacks (i.e. a downside) does not negate module/rig usefulness.
Here we go again where you introduce your own strawman framing. You don’t get to do that. You’re here to address MY scenario, not make up your own. At no point did I say GJ per cycle increases. I said GJ PER SECOND increases. Arguing that GJ/cycle does not increase has nothing to do with me. I never disputed that. You are OFF TOPIC.
The existence of one does not negate the other. They are not mutually exclusive ideas. But you people keep erroneously claiming that the existence of benefits completely erases the very existence of the drawbacks, which is mindbogglingly inane. Just a complete denial of reality. We would not be having this discussion if you didn’t. The GJ PER SECOND used does increase. If you are not addressing GJ PER SECOND you are OFF TOPIC. For a small ‘enduring’ armor rep at level 1 GJ/s is -6.32. At Level 5 it is -8.0. Regardless of whether or not this change is explicitly written into the item description or attributes verbatim as a stat, the effect is the same with continual use: More capacitor is used per second. Which you just admitted was a downside. That has a negative effect on total capacitor run time. As opposed to a raw HP/s bonus, which would improve performance without costing more capacitor PER SECOND. If armor plates, for example, did not state they decreased agility and prop mod thrust that would not negate the fact that said negatives were drawbacks. It would be inane for me to say they aren’t drawbacks, but just how mass operates. That would go both ways according to that logic. You’d have to think rate of fire increase isn’t a DPS benefit either. It’s “simply how the skill operates”?
More of the ‘I know you are but what am I’ Pee-Wee Herman School of Childhood Debate tactics. I can’t have a red herring. I’m the person whose topic it is. I set the topic. You respond. Not the other way around. What you’re saying is that my very argument, the topic you have come here to supposedly dispute, is itself a red herring. You’re effectively stating the original post is a red herring. Which is nonsensical. A red herring to deflect from what exactly? 
I never said there was. I gave a hypothetic and you know this. So why would you even make this comment?
See what I mean? And then when I point out you people’s bad faith statements you have a hissy fit.
Yes its called a tradeoff, you get more HP/s for more GJ/s, making a ship cap stable isn’t impossible anyway for PvE and for PvP you want the extra HP/s
So while you call it a “double edged sword” to train it, not training it is also a double edged sword as you’re not going to be able to tank enough in pretty much all scenarios where it would matter
So you just have to choose if you would rather live or not, in all the 19 years i’ve played i’ve never once encountered a scenario where i thought “I wish i could make my HP/s worse by gimping my reppers”
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