Why is the Repair Systems skill a two-edged sword?

[Murasame_Masamune]

@Io_Koval

The dude is staring at one tree and the rest of us are trying to show him the forest.

You can’t see the forest for the trees. At no point did I ever state I run every module non-stop. Nor that I had any pressing cap issues. Yet more strawmanning.

@Murasame_Masamune

I always turn on [tank modules] and forget for the most part. Rather shield or armor tanking. If I see I’m not needing it I turn it off, but I’m not monitoring it like a hawk.

A module using less cap is better than the same module using more. If less is better, then it stands to reason that if a skill results in me using more cap that is a downside. That it has upsides too, in HP/s gained, does not mean more cap isn’t a downside. You do realize that having an upside and a downside at the same time is not mutually exclusive, right? It’s that simple, but you can’t (or won’t) see the forest. Then you go off talking about “turning off” modules that I don’t need running like that’s some brilliant outside the box thinking. Hey, if you turn your car engine off when you’re not driving it you save gas. If you’re not using a hairdryer, try turning it off instead of having it run 24/7 when you’re not drying your hair to save electricity and cut down on noise pollution. Amazing. As if I ever stated I run all modules non-stop. Not that it would matter or be of any consequence in regard to what I’m saying.

If there was a skill that simply upped capacitor cost, I’m sure you’d agree that would be a downside. But for some reason, if there is an upside too, the downside isn’t acknowledged, and you PRETEND like it doesn’t coexist with the upside. This framing of this being some “cap issue” that ceases to exist if you were cap stable or managed cap better is a red herring. I guess rigs that increase power grid need along with DPS have no downside either.

Let’s make this simple. Answer this question for me: If there was a skill that just increased the capacitor need of a module, would that be a downside? Yes or No.

@Mephiztopheleze

My dude.
Your attitude towards people who are trying to help you is pretty dim.
I’ve asked, repeatedly, what anomaly and what ship/fit is causing your difficulty in an attempt to help you.

I don’t need your help. I have repeatedly told you I am having no difficultly with any of my fits. Where are you getting the idea that I am? Quote me.
I don’t have any issue to be solved by any player’s advice. When did I ever say, “Hey, guys. I’m having trouble and need some advice.”? Quote me.
I’m just making a statement of fact in regard to how a skill effects a module. And then giving my suggestion that there should not be any situation where a lower skill level has an advantage over a higher skill level. How do you propose to “help me” with this viewpoint???
When did I even state it to be a “major issue”? Quote me.

@Luthien_Thiann_Ar

There is no simple scenario where Repair Systems I and using inferior repper beat Repair Systems V with a T2 repper.

Uh, okay. I certainly never said any such thing so why are you telling me this?

[Io_Koval]

@Murasame_Masamune

At no point did I ever state I run every module non-stop.

And I never said anything about every module non-stop either. I talked about >0 modules running forever, which is completely relevant to your case (and you yourself quoted yourself on this) because I am engaging with what you say on good faith:

@Murasame_Masamune

I always turn on [tank modules] and forget for the most part.

Hence, I am engaging with you where you are. Tank Modules is >0 modules which is:

@Io_Koval

It’s only a downside for fits and piloting styles where you run modules turned on forever

That’s not ALL modules. Just modules. Some arbitrary number that exists. That means >0. Glad we’re on the same page. Would you like to stop uncharitably reading into what I have to say yet?

@Murasame_Masamune

strawmanning

You have to quit using this word as at this point everyone is seeing you shout it so many times because you can’t help but admitting to doing it. (See above). Skip past this and engage in what I say in good faith.

@Murasame_Masamune

Answer this question for me: If there was a skill that just increased the capacitor need of a module, would that be a downside? Yes or No.

“Capacitor need” is not a module attribute nor a derived stat for a ship. When talking about technical gameplay, you’re going to have to speak plainly instead of conjuring up words to mean whatever you’d like them to mean. So that you can declare anything I say “wrong” and “not understanding you” and then shout “strawman” some more. Choose one of the following bolded items which are technical gameplay attributes:

• [Primary stat] Increase of Module capacitor activation cost?
  • My answer is “yes” as it affects all fits and piloting styles.
• [Primary stat] Decrease of Module cycle/activation time?
  • My answer is “no” as it depends on the specific fit and piloting style.
• [Derived stat] Decrease of Capacitor stability?
  • My answer is “no” as it depends on the specific fit and piloting style.

For the love of Jamyl Sarum please stop evangelizing/practicing your religion of Strawman and actually listen to the following after taking a deep breath:

I haven’t talked about the upside of the Repair Systems skill for several posts.

I know, this revelation is hard, because you’re tunnel visioned:

@Murasame_Masamune

You continue to try and make this into a fitting issue that can be resolved or an assertion that skills having any downside somehow negates their upside and renders their respective modules a net loss to use.

@Murasame_Masamune

You do realize that having an upside and a downside at the same time is not mutually exclusive, right?

Yeah, no , catch up to the god damn thread man and stop living in the past and:

• Reread (Armor repair not mentioned)
• What (Armor repair not mentioned)
• I (Pizza Armor Repair can be deleted and argument remains intact)
• Wrote (Armor Repair amount can be ignored in the T=blah examples and argument remains intact)

None of it is conditional upon the upsides at all. I might mention them in examples, but you can just delete them in your brain and realize everything I’ve said remains intact. You are tunnel visioning and hallucinating that I “need armor repairing faster” to somehow make “lower module activation time not be a downside”. No, I don’t. I am arguing only on the merits of what you call “downside” and I call “shortened module activation time”.

It’s really clear you are just so deep with feeling bad over this thread, that you’re quintupling down because in part you’re afraid that granting a single square inch of shared understanding would somehow be viewed (mistakenly, I might add) as a weakness or a loss. That’s not the case. There’s no gloating to be had. Just your very bruised ego at this point lashing out.

The real loss is my time, so enjoy your perma block.

[Aiko_Danuja]

Why do you waste your time on this guy?

In a month he will be back on an alt trolling you again.

[Io_Koval]

Well, I do try to help on the genuine newbie topics that come through here, and maybe I’m just not jaded enough, or enjoy wearing egg on my face. I don’t know.

I do know this sort of internet-addled-brain argumentation style that OP brings I hate in modern day forums with a burning passion. When I moderated gaming forums 10 years ago (not Eve related) it was an instant ban from the community.

[Aiko_Danuja]

@Murasame_Masamune

I don’t need your help. I have repeatedly told you… I don’t have any issue to be solved by any player’s advice.

You are wasting your time.

[Io_Koval]

@Aiko_Danuja

You are wasting your time.

Yeah, part of why I blocked him after the last message.

Guy doesn’t want a convo. Just wants to assert a poorly assessed opinion as fact. Pretty sure we future-proofed this thread for anyone who happens to stumble upon it over the game’s next 2 decades, so the misinformation doesn’t propagate further.

Now TSM IV vs TSM V on the other hand… that is a spicy “only a drawback to skill up” argument (which is >1 decade old).

[Luthien_Thiann_Ar]

@Murasame_Masamune

Uh, okay. I certainly never said any such thing so why are you telling me this?

Because:

@Murasame_Masamune

I like to be cap stable or close to it and I find myself not wanting to train the skill beyond level 1. It being able to run longer, in my opinion, trumps it doing a little more repair.

I just explained to you that your line of thought is nonsense, because if you keep skilling Repair Systems from I to V, you will end up with a fitting that has MORE TANK and is even MORE CAPSTABLE because your repping power will increase so much and you will have access to far more powerful reppers so you can free at least one lowslot that can add HUGELY to your capacitor stability. A lot more than keeping Repair Systems at Level I (as you liked to do) would ever do for you.

[Xeux]

You guys are all too busy playing the game to truly savor the forums (or what is left of them). This thread is a perfect example.

[Mephiztopheleze]

I don’t feel there is any problem with the skill as it currently stands.
If you really want to lower a skill level, that option is available to you through the use of a Skill Extractor.
I am somewhat bemused by your attitude.
I’ll be over in the corner, with popcorn watching you continue to make an absolute fool of yourself.

[Murasame_Masamune]

@Io_Koval

@Murasame_Masamune

At no point did I ever state I run every module non-stop.

And I never said anything about every module non-stop either. I talked about >0 modules running forever, which is completely relevant to your case (and you yourself quoted yourself on this) because I am engaging with what you say on good faith:

In good faith? Really. Here is what I JUST QUOTED:

@Murasame_Masamune

I always turn on [tank modules] and forget for the most part. Rather shield or armor tanking. If I see I’m not needing it I turn it off, but I’m not monitoring it like a hawk.

Here is what you cut out of that “in good faith”.

@Murasame_Masamune

I always turn on [tank modules] and forget for the most part.

You are dismissed, sir. Now run along and bs someone else.

[Murasame_Masamune]

@Luthien_Thiann_Ar

@Murasame_Masamune

Uh, okay. I certainly never said any such thing so why are you telling me this?

Because:

@Murasame_Masamune

I like to be cap stable or close to it and I find myself not wanting to train the skill beyond level 1. It being able to run longer, in my opinion, trumps it doing a little more repair.

I just explained to you that your line of thought is nonsense, because if you keep skilling Repair Systems from I to V, you will end up with a fitting that has MORE TANK and is even MORE CAPSTABLE because your repping power will increase so much and you will have access to far more powerful reppers so you can free at least one lowslot that can add HUGELY to your capacitor stability. A lot more than keeping Repair Systems at Level I (as you liked to do) would ever do for you.

Ignoring the fact the much more has been said since then, where in that quote does it say an Armor Repairer II at level 5 skill is flat our inferior to an Armor Repairer I at level 1?

We don’t need to go to the extreme example you used. What if there is no cap issue with the T1 ‘enduring’ armor repairer at level 3? Then in that situation level 3 would be preferrable to level 1, right? You’re making a generalized conclusion (a most extreme one at that) from what is a critique about specific situations. Remember, I’m saying there should be no scenario - no matter how niche you might call it - where a lower level is preferable. Because when you invest the SP, that’s that. I have never stated that the lesser GJ/s is always the determining factor in rather a module is preferrable in all circumstances. If I did, please quote me.

I am only pointing out that there is a downside to a higher skill level in Repair Systems. That being increased GJ/s being used. Just like there is a downside to turret DPS rigs in the form of increased power grid need. That downside doesn’t negate the upside, which is increased rate of fire or raw damage. But it’s still a downside. However, rigs don’t require a SP investment and if you do invest into rigging it’s a 100% positive result.

[Murasame_Masamune]

@Mephiztopheleze

I don’t feel there is any problem with the skill as it currently stands.
If you really want to lower a skill level, that option is available to you through the use of a Skill Extractor.
I am somewhat bemused by your attitude.
I’ll be over in the corner, with popcorn watching you continue to make an absolute fool of yourself.

You could not quote me saying any of the nonsense your replies allude to. As I said, you were strawmanning and you just confirmed it and you realize it. Just like Io Koval could not answer the simplest of questions:

@Murasame_Masamune

If there was a skill that simply upped capacitor cost, I’m sure you’d agree that would be a downside. But for some reason, if there is an upside too, the downside isn’t acknowledged, and you PRETEND like it doesn’t coexist with the upside. This framing of this being some “cap issue” that ceases to exist if you were cap stable or managed cap better is a red herring. I guess rigs that increase power grid need along with DPS have no downside either.

Let’s make this simple. Answer this question for me: If there was a skill that just increased the capacitor need of a module, would that be a downside? Yes or No.

Of course, your type will deflect and run away. God forbid you simply admit you made an error on the internet. Because you both understand you’ve lost. You fully understand you are wrong. You both are cognizant that you have played the fools. And now you’re tucking tail and running, while ironically slinging insults, not realizing you’re looking into a mirror. Which, I guess, is the best play you can make to save what’s left of your bruised egos.

Have a nice day and put all this behind you.

[Qia_Kare]

The skill does not affect the capacitor cost at all. That’s why we don’t engage with your theoretical question about a skill that only increases cap consumption. It only changes the fastest rate you can, at your option, pay that cost and receive the effect. Don’t want to pay the cost that often? Actively manage it so that it goes at whatever rate you prefer.

If you don’t want to actively manage it to that degree, you can call that a drawback, but having to actively manage it to reduce its capacitor consumption to that of a lower skill level (and receive only as much repair as the lower skill level player would) is the only possible drawback since in all other ways the two are equal. The use of more capacitor on the fitting window assumes you leave it running all the time, so you definitely are talking about that if your citation for the drawback is the amount of cap consumption on the fitting window making you no longer cap stable.

Again, if you manage the module to cycle at the same rate and timing as the lower skilled player can, you pay the same cost and receive the same HP. Nothing would change except that you’d get your HP a little sooner after the activation on each cycle. The capacitor situation would be in all ways identical between the two.

[Mephiztopheleze]

Your tears are delicious.
Much salt. So very. Wow!

[Murasame_Masamune]

@Qia_Kare

The skill does not affect the capacitor cost at all.

That’s why the GJ/s increases as the skill level increases? Because it’s not costing more to run continuously . Which is the entire crux of the scenario I laid out.

Nothing theoretical about it. It’s lived experience, grade school math. You don’t engage because you fully understand you’ve lost and lack the integrity to admit it even when it’s empirically evident. No worries. I’ve been on the internet for years and your behavior is standard fare. As I’ve repeated for the Nth time, you cannot manage cap usage if in a situation in which the incoming damage is high enough and consistent enough to which turning off the rep will lead to a quick demise. But you already know this and are actively ignoring the very argument I represented, a point which lies and the crux of the debate, and replacing it with a completely different scenario in which incoming DPS is too low to matter. You’re not making a good faith argument.

I have a Rifter fit that is cap stable with an Armor Repair II (which requires L3 Repair Systems skill). The fact that it requires more GJ/s is still a downside. Just like equipping a DPS rig still has a downside (i.e. drawback) even if I have the power grid to handle it. Get it now? Nevermind, I won’t insult your intelligence by pretending you didn’t already get it several posts ago. I know you’re just feigning ignorance in bad faith.

The idea that the difference in HP/s repped between, for example, level 1 and 3 is so vast that active management to equalize L3 GJ/s to L1 GJ/s rates would be practical or humanly possible is just a complete and utter joke. That would require managing armor repairer use to within fractions of a second (0.6 for an ‘enduring’ variant) in response time. And that’s not even considering server tick. All the while engaging enemies and managing all other modules. You’re just being silly at this point so I think we’re done here. Anyway, have a nice day and take care.

You can continue replying if you want, but I’ll just keep directing you back to this very comment.

@Mephiztopheleze

Your tears are delicious.
Much salt. So very. Wow!

Nice try. But you’re very obviously the one who is salty and this is a last ditch effort to get me to stop pointing out your failure and total humiliation. Classic internets. Sadly, you’ve only made yourself look more childish. Take your L and move on, brother.

[Gadget_Helmsdottir]

@Murasame_Masamune

It’s lived experience, grade school math.

…with a college level fix.

Turn the lights off when not in use.

–Professor Gadget

[Xeux]

I feel like M&M is trolling us, but his posts are so long and he puts so much effort into them that maybe he is serious.

[Quentin_Schaefer]

TSM 5 is worth it. Prove me wrong.

[Mephiztopheleze]

If he is trolling, he’s putting in some serious effort, which I can appreciate. Too many low effort trolls around.

If he isn’t, then it’s like watching a two year old throw a foot stamping, screeching, snot bubbles coming out the nose meltdown of a tantrum. All because you cut their sandwich into square quarters when everyone knows the triangles are bigger!

[Luthien_Thiann_Ar]

I don’t get why he does not understand the simple fact that skilling Repair Systems to the max always gives better results than keeping it at level I. He can have more tank and more capacitor at the same time by just using the fitting options which Repair Systems V give him. Not even talked about abyssal rolled reppers becoming available at level IV I think, which can greatly boost both repping power and capacitor use. Keeping it at level I is simply a bad and unlogical decision, no matter how you lookt at it. Why can’t he see that?