Your Opinion on (Providence) NRDS

As a n00b this was one of the reasons I didn’t go down that route, I didn’t want to be tied to Goons or Test or whoever. Certainly NRDS worked for me, as a newbro it let you choose the level of risk you wanted as you learned. As a know-nothing diplo for my know-nothing corp I got us neutral standing there and a few of us had some good times.

Yes the KOS list was cumbersome but the intel channel(s) were pretty good I found and being part of it gave you a sense of contributing even if only in a small way.

Anyway, I certainly appreciated what ProviBloc did and it will be a shame if the idea dies completely IMO.

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Mmmkay, so this being the only way one has experienced New Eden, it became the only way. The innate genius freed by the great mythological beast Emergent Gameplay didn’t spawn progeny logic now dictates the powers that be should sustain. Underneath it all is sentiment akin to wistful remembrance. I still find it amusing a bunch of people didn’t realize NRDS wasn’t going to hold that umbrella forever, and took no steps to enable themselves in all this time. Now, a forlorn wishing aloud . . . nice read.

@Serene_Repose has a valid point in saying that the current NRDS space, in the shape and form it was implemented, could not continue to exist without some sort of support from the far bigger groups when it is besieged by an already larger group.

However, does that invalidate the concept of NRDS per se ? and related to that:
Do the sov holders of NRDS space have to be completely self-sustainable in all aspects against all odds ?
Is there no meta level imaginable that would agree with giving a place to NRDS in the game, to help the game itself (the label “new-player” for this topic) and create content at the same time ? After all, it did for 15 years…

Regarding the remarks about nullsec vs. npc nullsec (e.g. by @Xeux) , would NRDS without sovereignty not merely be a self-imposed, complicating rule of “do not fire unless fired upon” without something valuable in return, something to defend ?

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I can tell you that it was quite useful as a honeypot for attracting naive new players who believed that it was ACTUALLY a viable place to play the game any more than NPC null or even sov null or wormholes. And that was pretty clearly the intention from my experience.
It was nothing more than a shooting gallery masquerading as a fun house.
Noobies love funhouses!

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Cva and nrds need to go away

Why? I mean, they’re doing that, but for what reason is it necessary?

Literally most of NPC null is pretty empty, and NRDS never worked cause almost everyone in the game were red to Provi bloc. I don’t see their loss as a big deal.

Not everyone…

Providence NRDS is an epic idea and are much more difficult and ambitious challenge than stupid
playing NBSI like a pavlovian dog.

The idea works for years, even it is not perfect.

I see nothing official from CVA, so I asked me, if this could be a campagne.

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which seems to be confirmed in this “report” providence_last_coalition_meeting_rough_summary, not an “official” one but still some info. Looks like the alliances of Provibloc will be scattered to the four winds. But it’s probably best to take this as the final messages from an exhausted? / defeated? / demotivated? leadership that never had a breather since PL last invaded the region, and not the final assessment of NRDS itself.

The questions I put forward in light of the turmoil, however, remain the same. My apologies for keeping on pushing for replies. As you may have guessed, I think NRDS is valuable enough to have a discussion. Thank you to all of you who have already replied. Keep it coming.

That’s like saying NBSI never worked because . . . the Goons are blue to a bunch of people. I want to say that there is something in that that I agree with, but I can’t put my finger on it. What is the actual point you were making?

You’ll have to talk to CCP about getting rid of NRDS because Jita and every other high sec system is virtually a hard coded version of the Providence holder’s NRDS policy, and surprise surprise, NBSI organizations seem to have the same attitude towards it as towards Providence.
You are a cancerous minority.

Tell us what you REALLY think!

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Is Providence still managing to provail all these years?

No. They gave up.

NRDS systems inevitably fail because it is easy to pile on them and use them for target practice.
I am not a huge fan of CVA, but without reservation, I salute their efforts. They are *unasterisked warriors for having fought off essentially all of New Eden for so many years.
And a huge shout out to another NRDS group, Republic Alliance and especially Time 3290. They didn’t last as long as CVA but they also fought the good fight.
And to anyone who disagrees . . . you know you can cash me owside tEh Jita.
Phuck yu. What’s up?
^ that’s what I really think @Serene_Repose

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Making a KOS list is not difficult and not a challenge.

i ganked the providence, not sure why we are still talking about it?

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:violin:

Seeing that the thread has run its course, I owe it to everyone who responded to share my own opinion (or very brief analysis) now, without having pushed the discussion in any direction before it started.

First off, I am convinced that the Not Red Don’t Shoot concept is valuable. The idea is/was a) to give newer players the opportunity to visit at least one region without being shot at “on sight” (Not Blue Shoot It) as soon as they pass the gate, which is the case in all other nullsec regions coupled with b) protection provided by the local sovereignty holders. Neutrals are free to roam, free to run anoms/signatures, mine, use certain facilities, etc, as long as they follow the NRDS rule itself by not initiating fights with locals or fellow neutrals.

The first couple of weaknesses present themselves there. 1) The rules need to be explained to any neutral visitor, 2) one must keep track of wrongdoers (hence the famous KOS list) - which proved a vast chore to manage - and 3) neutrals have to be kept informed of who is a potential attacker so they have at least a chance to get safe.

More important than the day to day administration of an NRDS region is the necessity to enforce the rule itself and to protect the sovereignty.

NRDS space, just by being “different” from the rest of nullsec, is - inevitably - an attractant. Some groups will come in to challenge the standing fleets, and others will come in to harass the weakest part of the population, i.e. the neutrals for whom all this was installed in the first place, to spite the sov holders, spite the whole NRDS idea, or get easy kills on unsuspecting targets. The feeling of being perpetually farmed, btw, was real but usually manageable until around 2015. Couple that with hisec wardec’ing and it becomes even more complicated (newer players don’t have the necessary alts trained up). Even without sovereignty challenges the pressure is high and constant. The sov holders have to be armed to the teeth and constantly vigilant if they want to retain credibility and reason-of-being, with presence in all time zones.

The final point. What if sovereignty is challenged ? The simple truth is that no single mid-sized coalition can hold on to sovereignty, even if they have a sizeable titan/super/dread fleet, when they’re up against a bigger and determined challenger usually accompanied by opportunist groups. And in a New Eden that has the aspect of a “blue donut”, bat phones are scarce and interests may be conflicting. Without a general consensus that a single NRDS region would benefit the game itself, and without appropriate enforcement of the region’s neutrality, it is only a matter of time before the region collapses. Is there any hope for such a consensus ? This is a dog eat dog environment, so it’s highly unlikely. And that, I fear, seals the fate of any mid to long-term NRDS effort in sov nullsec.

An NRDS initiative stands or falls with the adherence to the rule. It requires a level of self-restraint (don’t fire on a neutral until you are attacked). That also makes it inevitable that the NRDS sov holder’s coalition will be mid-sized at most, with only those pilots that are willing to follow the rule and forego the easy kills. Many say “if you can’t defend sov then you don’t deserve it”. That is of course true. But the same is true for even the largest coalitions, groups of pilots and influencers with a common interest. Without the definition of a common interest there is nothing but “shoot whenever, capture whatever, tears guud”. That is why diplomacy exists in EvE, no single group can pull everything off by themselves alone (one only has to look at past and ongoing wars in New Eden), including and perhaps especially an NRDS coalition.

If anything, NRDS could be seen as idealistic, a willingness to take the risk of being different. Being different, of course, creates an extra vulnerability that can never be overcome, an open invitation to aggressors who enforce uniformity in their own one-dimensional thought pattern of greed. Staying independent from larger coalitions while relying, at some point in time, on their military support or diplomatic influence with aggressors, is contradictory to say the least. But again, the same is true for any group.

That it has taken Provibloc 15 years to succumb is testament to their relentless effort and unfaltering belief, despite the meager resources at their disposal. They have been standing alone together for a very long time. They’re probably as much surprised as the rest of us that it has lasted this long. Yes, of course mistakes were made during those years, but which group hasn’t. Respect and thanks, Provi.

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From an RP point of view I’m glad they’re gone, this whole “kumbaya, everyone share in the Amarrian wealth and space” is very un-Amarrian and the ones that DO adhere to it are heretics.

Also, CVA isn’t even lead by an Amarrian character and they call themselves RPers.