-1 All This Scarcity Has Made Me Scarce

[Meditril]

@Sam_the_Wise

used to be a day when paying 15 dollars was enough to enjoy a game at its fullest , not anymore

Please don’t speak for me, I am happily paying the subscription and I am still enjoying the game at its fullest.

One thing which I however learned in EVE is, that you have to change your profession from time to time to keep the level of enjoyment over time. And this is regardless what CCP is nerving, changing or whatever. CCP interventions are just usually the trigger for me that it is time to change, and I even like it that with every change there is a new challenge to take, which drives my enjoyment once I learned to new things.

[Dracvlad]

@Destiny_Corrupted

I’ll pay for your account on the condition that you maintain war eligibility.

I can easily afford my accounts should I make the decision to finally sub.

I think two of my PvP characters are in an alliance that can be war decked. Sadly for you, the interesting things are not in hisec, you can always try you luck in nullsec of course. I found during my time with Aaron that people who have emotive skin in the game as you obviously have in terms of me, rather fun, more intense and meaningful.

[Destiny_Corrupted]

@ZhaoMin

However, thumbs down also to them for unable to implement effective solution that fix the problem that was now so deeply rooted (perhaps the real reason is that it got hold of some entities that CCP is truly afraid to trigger their wrath should CCP go hard).

I somewhat agree with this, but keep in mind that the alternative solution would likely entail getting all these people blown up a lot as opposed to just having them mine less, and that would’ve been even less palatable for them.

@ZhaoMin

Then what do players do or can do? Best course of action, quit or threaten to quit with a tiny minority that actually comes to the forum and speak up their quitting intention. Some goes off on just pure whining, some legitimately giving feedback and a good amount of them gets target by trolls at some point.

I doubt that the non-vocal players who have been affected by scarcity are quitting in any significant numbers. To most players, these changes result in them going “hup! better get those new component BPOs I guess!” and continuing playing as they always have. I think that most gamers understand that patch changes ebb and flow in terms of their positive and negative impacts on an individual level.

Like, I used to play a lot of WoW, and people generally didn’t spam the forums with quit threats every time Blizzard nerfed a popular build or an overpowered trinket. Most people saw it as a change that they’d have to adapt to, and make the best of.

@ZhaoMin

But many people and rather normal players are struggling or experience legitimately in-game hardships, they are not like the smaller subgroup of players who can sustain and ride out the (sh*t)storm that CCP created in response to over farming

Those players, the relatively new high-sec miners or someone putting Drakes in the oven, are the players who feel the impact of these changes the least. They engage in activities that are low-end enough that transitioning to something else is comparatively trivial. But the person running an Exhumer bot farm who now has to go to low-sec or import the Nocxium they need to put out tens of billions of ISK worth of stuff every week? Not so much.

@Induce_Deadline

@Destiny_Corrupted

And what you find fun in a video game is the equivalent of working a second job?

Huh? Things I most enjoyed about Eve were supercap battles and fleet fights, I used rorq mining and super ratting to fund that. Rorq mining was also awesome, chilling on comms with 20 people in an anom whilst mining together all the while knowing Bombers Bar or a WH group could roam to your pocket and splat you all. I was dropped on several times and it was truly scary, I also came to the defense of friends who were dropped on.

You can’t buy that content now. It’s gone from the sandpit and that’s a real shame.

But if your gameplay focused on doing all those fun things, then why did you say that you quit because your ISK/hour became lower? A lower ISK/hour (which isn’t even necessarily a fact considering that most miners are actually better off now than before because their industry controls a bigger share of the economy) has no bearing on you enjoying all those fun things you just listed. And in case you forgot, here’s the quote:

@Induce_Deadline

To address a point above, one of the main reasons why I quit is the nerf to ISK/hour and ore/hour.

[Destiny_Corrupted]

@Dracvlad

I think two of my PvP characters are in an alliance that can be war decked. Sadly for you, the interesting things are not in hisec, you can always try you luck in nullsec of course.

I did, it gradually became boring as ■■■■, I left, and I never looked back. And that’s why I’m still here after all that time.

But you’ve heard this story before (you just choose to ignore it because that lets you keep doing that “if you were a real PvPer, you’d be out in null-sec” thing you’re so fond of).

Actually here’s some genuine advice (again, I keep giving genuine advice because I’m actually very nice): if you want to burn me really well in front of everyone, change it from “you don’t go to null-sec because you’re afraid of real PvP” to something like “all the real PvPers chased you out of null-sec like a ragged dog with its tail between its legs because you couldn’t handle being part of real EVE PvP and can only get away with clubbing baby seals in high-sec.”

[ZhaoMin]

@Destiny_Corrupted

To most players, these changes result in them going “hup! better get those new component BPOs I guess!” and continuing playing as they always have.

But those are not “New” or normal players who just want chill and occasional pew. The price of those new component BPOs and number needed puts them out of reach for “new” and undedicated players who only occasionally on much less frequent intervals, likely used to put Megathrons instead of Drakes to the oven. And now they “feel” that they are “forced” to now put Drakes into the said oven. They needed positive guidance and most without such guidance or resiliance simply give up and feels frustrated and being screwed over by CCP.

@Destiny_Corrupted

Like, I used to play a lot of WoW, and people generally didn’t spam the forums with quit threats every time Blizzard nerfed a popular build or an overpowered trinket. Most people saw it as a change that they’d have to adapt to, and make the best of.

I don’t know WoW at all, I have played some other themepark MMOs at the same time as I started Eve, the thing is when WoW has an update:

• Is it easy to respec characters?
• How does said nerfs affect the said MMO’s ecosystem?
• I gather it has a more linear progression and makes adaptation trivial and thus dampen the effect of the changes?
• How has that moved the barrier of entry to say making new things, or participating in new raids, is it hours, days, weeks to grind/farm new gears for new builds or does it take months (or seemly forfeit months of training).
• Don’t think it has the same level of punishments (I didn’t mean Eve is punishing) as dying in Eve? Do you lose your gear/skills (<-- this part probably don’t apply to Eve soon) as you die?

etc.

@Destiny_Corrupted

Those players, the relatively new high-sec miners or someone putting Drakes in the oven, are the players who feel the impact of these changes the least. They engage in activities that are low-end enough that transitioning to something else is comparatively trivial.

That may be, I think a lot of new players also is attracted to Eve (back in the olden days anyway) that they goes “I heard you can play for free and it’s possible and easy enough to do that via multiple routes with a bit of dedication”. With a bit of help, it was easy enough to get them started regardless their choice of profession, location of operation, their preferred playstyle.

The ones made out of it are like me, I can endure longer with all these changes. Many did not and many more are struggling when CCP skewed the risk/reward balance, constrained the path of progression, enough to put people off and says “ain’t worth their time any more”, or “screwed my years of training”, or “what’s the point now wallet warriors can just buy skills with cash” … etc. Disposable alphas (manned by vets, or bot farmers) didn’t make things any better.

@Destiny_Corrupted

But the person running an Exhumer bot farm who now has to go to low-sec or import the Nocxium they need to put out tens of billions of ISK worth of stuff every week? Not so much.

And that’s still the issue, I have no sympathy for farmers and botters, sure Scarcity hits them harder in terms of income scale (before/after) but it’s not a death blow. Same as safe blue donut farmers, they will continue to churn out ISK and resources, at much lower rate, but that was what I mean ineffective, because they easily adapt by dictating the rate of production and destruction, resulting in an always surplus scenario and they can just get by easily because to them, it’s just nuisance at best.

Will CCP willing or have the guts to touch them? They sure will go smack the small flies, but they also shown that they are rather lenient to the tigers and wolves that walks in broad daylight.

[Dracvlad]

If you took the time to read what I say you would find out that when I make statements about real PvP I say it in terms of my own feelings about what I am doing, not so much what other people think or judge themselves on. I have at times wondered what sort of satisfaction players get from a kill on something that has no chance of surviving and even of fighting back, but I also understand the joy of a perfect execution type kill as in a BLOP’s drop.

I may have a couple of the times expressed the view that real PvP is where you are in a white knuckle fight with someone who can kill you, but it is based on what I judge myself on.

What you think you know about me based on mis-reading what I say into what you think I say is rather wrong.

For example I was not making any statement about you being a real man and that you could not go to nullsec, I was just saying that the interesting things my friends were doing was in nullsec and my comment was along the lines of you could come there if you felt that much about it, as in coming after me. I certainly did not throw that at you as an insult, but you took it as one.

I did like big battles at times, being in caps and stuff, but also it can get a bit lame if it turns into a lagfest. My preferred PvP is small gang stuff with people who have something about them.

For example, your statement about Eve being a game where you play against the game is why I come back to Eve and have been playing it for years. However there is a balance between a challenge and head butting a brick wall.

That you don’t like me is fair enough, but to take umbrage about what I said above and turn it into a you’re not man enough to go to nullsec is wrong. You think it is all about making an attack on you and yet it was not, it was really me saying that the people I am thinking of coming back for are doing stuff in nullsec and while you have a personal issue with me so you want a war dec, I just don’t care. My PvP is more based on strategic and tactical need more than anything else, the hate or intensity part that you seem to be projecting adds spice to it.

I said seem, because based on the way you throw insults it may be hate, but I have the impression you just like making digs like that at anyone who you decide is against your view and take anything they say as being the same.

There was some advice in there.

[Induce_Deadline]

@Destiny_Corrupted

But if your gameplay focused on doing all those fun things, then why did you say that you quit because your ISK/hour became lower? A lower ISK/hour (which isn’t even necessarily a fact considering that most miners are actually better off now than before because their industry controls a bigger share of the economy) has no bearing on you enjoying all those fun things you just listed. And in case you forgot, here’s the quote:

Because they took away those fun things which had the nice ISK/hour.

I also said it was one of the main reasons why I quit, I also listed 5-6 other reasons in my post.

Lower isk/hour makes it more difficult to fund pvp in expensive ships, null revenue streams have dried up meaning more grinding ISK to do the same things as I could pre Scarcity/Indy changes. No thanks.

Why would I mine in a barge when I’ve got 4 rorq accounts, why would I rat in an ishtar when I’ve got a dedicated super account etc. The nerfing of content means I either stepdown to smaller ships and lower isk/hour e.g. Subcaps Online or quit.

I spent many years grinding through subcap pve/pvp to reach my goal of cap/super pve/pvp. I don’t really want to step back to the old world, it took longer to get my pve done and it’s simply not as appealing. I want the ability to use my cap accounts again whilst enjoying all the content that brought such as defence pings, big battles with NPSI and WH groups, the social aspect of chilling on comms with friends whilst mining and, of course, the nice ISK/hour as rewards are big factor in how I derive “fun”.

Just to add, I’m totally open to the fact many vets like me have effectively “completed” the game where we’ve worked through subcaps to caps to supers over the years and if the intent is to diminish cap/super gameplay that I need to move along for newbros to “complete” a similar journey over the next 10 years etc. I think that’s actually a big junk of the PCU drop, vets realising their time is up as the game evolves towards subcap pursuits.

[Garlok_Minolto]

What was the most fun about being an industrialist was flying faction ships on the side - easy to build - worth the challenge to find a BPC and it was my reward for building all the other stations and boring rubbish that takes ages to accumulate and PI mine, my little gleaming flower of joy was that easy faction cruiser or that nice faction BS, pop it in and wait a few hours then go and enjoy myself. Now I have to skill up to tech II ships in every sphere to get what I could from other ships. My leshaks, are tediously annoying to build now - I do have the new BPCs, but I no longer enjoy that part of my experience and it was the only thing I really enjoyed. I skilled into a Kronos when the industry nuked faction BSs and now a nerf to them is about to hit. I skilled into carriers and carrier production and then industry changes hit that earlier this year. It seems like wherever I plan to work towards, there is going to be some major change that isn’t economically connected - but rather from CCP.

[Inxentas_Ultramar]

@Jenn_aSide

I’ve watched a lot of people quit over the years because of some change, and what I’ve found is that the common trait I see is lack of willingness to adapt to the situation.

I feel that’s logical. I played the game extensively for about 8 years in which I slowly but steadily built up a corp focussing on a few activities we found enjoyable (mainly piracy and fighting over moon locations in lowsec). Then we were told to manually mine those resources.

But that is an activity no-one in our corp liked. “Adapting” in this case, meant doing things we had no interest in doing OR just giving up on 8 years of slow and steady growth. Since I am not susceptible to the sunken cost fallacy I quit after seeing most people off. So we did indeed adapt… straight into other online games that provided the experiences we WERE interested in.

I tried to get back into it last year, but I think I’ve simply outgrown the game. Or it has changed so much for the worse it’s no longer capable of getting my attention. Like some ex that got real fat & ugly, I prefer the memories of “back then” over actually playing the game.

[safira_jomita]

@Meditril

Simply try out PVP in less blink ships and your need for crazy ingame income is gone. You can even have a lot of fun with PVP with ships below 100M ISK.

Have fun experimenting with something new, this is what the frequent EVE changes are about.

then why skill up for t3 and the stuff you think is nice ? scarcity just made the game less attractive. you like to use t3 for pvp? grinder a whole lot of time into it, they not cheap so you fund it with PVE. not anymore, now you must go pvp in ships you don’t like and maybe you are not good at… why go for it then? maybe better just go for another game right? a lot of ppl did. ccp is acting like eve are the only space game available.

[Meditril]

Expensive non-kiting slow ships are for proper fleet setups with proper logi and proper fleet discipline, they are in the first place not for being welped in suicidal activities.

Don‘t blame CCP for the fact that your hobby is burning ISK and that your ISK printer has been slightly nerved.

[safira_jomita]

@Meditril

Expensive non-kiting slow ships are for proper fleet setups with proper logi and proper fleet discipline

they are for whatever the owner wants to do. it’s a sandbox right?

@Meditril

Don‘t blame CCP for the fact that your hobby is burning ISK and that your ISK printer has been slightly nerved.

I’m not the case I mentioned here. and if let’s say lot of ppl like to earn lot of isk and burn it in PvP it’s a good thing for economy and game right? so if you cut that income ppl will need to invest more time to have the same amount of PvP … or do it cheaper wich is a direct nerf to their fun. if you don’t have the extra time to grind so much why do that ? many allready lost interest and are leaving.

[Meditril]

Ship owners can do whatever they want, you are right and this hasn’t changed. But there should be consequences, and in the past these consequences vanished more and more due to crazy optimized zero risk activities for those who went the Route of ISK/h maximization. On the other hand newcomers and other more just for fun-oriented players where forced more and more to go the same route to be competitive which was more and more spoiling their fun.

So I for my part am happy that CCP now is working on addressing the fun-oriented players.

[Mr_Epeen]

I’d take the time to prove them wrong but I’m busy working these darn 18 hr shifts.

Mr Epeen

[safira_jomita]

@Meditril

Ship owners can do whatever they want, you are right and this hasn’t changed. But there should be consequences, and in the past these consequences vanished more and more due to crazy optimized zero risk activities for those who went the Route of ISK/h maximization. On the other hand newcomers and other more just for fun-oriented players where forced more and more to go the same route to be competitive which was more and more spoiling their fun.

So I for my part am happy that CCP now is working on addressing the fun-oriented players.

all that changed is that ppl that are not trillionaire now have way more grind ahead if them to fund or to do things they like to do being that isk or time wise. so that’s a big fun nerf. every activity that changed pulls players for more time consuming witch is not fun.

[Meditril]

@safira_jomita

every activity that changed pulls players for more time consuming witch is not fun.

I tend to disagree, wormhole activities still gives you same ISK as before, maybe even more. Same for faction warfare. To me it seems that only AFKisch activities are heavily impacted, which is the major idea behind the whole change.

[safira_jomita]

@Meditril

tend to disagree, wormhole activities still gives you same ISK as before, maybe even more. Same for faction warfare. To me it seems that only AFKisch activities are heavily impacted, which is the major idea behind the whole change.

I’m totally in favor of not Afk activities. it’s not the case here. even non Afk activities got hit . indy used to be fun to me I had lot of spreadsheets. it’s now so time consuming on not even doing it anymore. other games catching me more than eve for now. ccp hit the medium/small guy income and expect them to risk more to risky content? something not right on that math.

[Jenn_aSide]

That’s the thing though, you backed yourself into a wall, relying on the idea that ccp would leave passive moon mining alone. Hell, you spent 8 years on that one thing and seem to have expected it to continue.

That was a mistake. Ccp has proven hundreds of times since 2003 that NOTHING is safe. It was the 1st thing I noticed when ccp changed something about ravens, missiles and mission running just as soon as I was able to afford my 1st mission running Navy Raven in late 2007.

Ccp makes some bad decisions sometimes, but at the end of the day there is so much stuff to do on eve, if you cant shift gears when the inevitable happens, then choosing to spend you time In some more “static” game situation elsewhere is the right thing to do.

[Teckos_Pech]

@Destiny_Corrupted

The premise being, of course, that players are leaving because their ISK/hour is lower, and not because 99% of the time the game is boring as ■■■■ to play.

Who cares…it is a hockey stick…and in a bad way.

[Teckos_Pech]

@Destiny_Corrupted

The premise being, of course, that players are leaving because their ISK/hour is lower, and not because 99% of the time the game is boring as ■■■■ to play.

Okay, so lets check this hypothesis…

99% of the time it is boring to play, and then suddenly 20ish years later everyone figures it out and starts leaving.

Next bad idea.