-1 All This Scarcity Has Made Me Scarce

[Qia_Kare]

It seems I need to explain myself better.

First of all, in my English ‘to take exception’ means ‘to disagree with’. I did not understand what you disagreed with so I asked. You answered, I saw nothing I particularly disagreed with in the response, so I was just going to let it go.

What I was getting was was this. When a player starts playin Eve, they start in Hisec.

If a new player in Hisec want to build stuff and collect wealth then that is easily done. Grab a venture and mine something. Grab a combat frigate and run missions. There’s a progression of bigger ships to mine or run missions/anomalies in. If someone starts playing Eve to PvE, they’re not going to have a hard time finding a way to do it.

If a new player in Hisec wants to participate in conflict, though, he really doesn’t have much option but to suicide gank. That’s about all there is. Wars are almost completely de-fanged and expensive to boot. To make an attempt to assert control over a system without resorting to suicide ganking a player requires a structure, a core for that structure, and the isk fee to declare a war. Just spitballing figures from my fuzzy memory that sounds like about 600 to 800 million isk to startup, and 100M isk per week to maintain.

Even if a newbie somehow had all the megabux to buy their structure, and field an offensive force to threaten someone, they still would not have a target. Every target must also own a structure and pay for a core. Then they’d also have to have their line members in the same corporation as the structure, which probably isn’t going to be the case. You could try to shunt these new players to lowsec, but they’re unlikely to find suitable targets to cut their teeth on there. The low hanging fruit is in hisec, and by low hanging fruit I mean people like me. Mostly independent non-aggressive groups who might be able to scrap together a few ships for a fight in a pinch.

When I say current Eve ‘selects for’ carebears, I’m talking about how much more appealing the starting ground is to people who PvE exclusively. I think PvP players are more likely to decide Eve is not for them before they graduate to low or null. I greater proportion of builders do graduate out of Hisec and bring their producer nature with them. The players who are the balance to all that production don’t make it that far as often.

To even this score, there are two options as I see it. Either give the destroyers of Eve a carrot, or give the producers of Eve the stick. Neither the developers nor the player base wants to give the carrot so the stick (scarcity) it is.

I am well aware that there are people who feel like Hisec is supposed to be super safe and that unwelcome PvP does not belong there. I agree that it’s supposed to be safer than low or null, but I think it should be providing a safer harbor for players of both PvE and PvP types to get started and it does a really really poor job of the latter in my opinion.

[Meditril]

@Qia_Kare

If a new player in Hisec wants to participate in conflict, though, he really doesn’t have much option but to suicide gank.

If a new player wants to participate in conflict he should not stay in HiSec in the first place. HiSec is by definition of EVE the place where conflict participation is most complex and punished by Concord. For a new player best ways for PVP are in order of ease to find „proper“ content for new players:

1. Faction Warfare
2. Wormholes
3. Null-Sec

[Aiko_Danuja]

@Meditril

HiSec is by definition of EVE the place where conflict participation is most complex and punished by Concord

So, does that mean Highsec is the arena of elite PvP?

[Meditril]

@Aiko_Danuja

So, does that mean Highsec is the arena of elite PvP?

Nope, HiSec PVP is for people who know all the detailed rules and limits of HiSec PVP and are able to make use of them. These aren’t the new players, even though they often use new alts for this task to protect their main characters from the negative effects impacts of their activities.

You can do HiSec PVP as a profession if you do right and earn a lot of ISK with it, but it is not trivial and you can’t do it with just some Excel spreadsheet.

[FORCY_FUNTIMES_MEATWATER]

@Meditril

Nope, HiSec PVP is for people who know all the detailed rules and limits of HiSec PVP and are able to make use of them.

This sounds like elite PVP with extra steps. Extra elite PVP?

[Meditril]

@FORCY_FUNTIMES_MEATWATER

This sounds like elite PVP with extra steps. Extra elite PVP?

The question is what do you mean with „elite“?
If you mean with „elite“ that you need more knowledge and experience of EVE mechanics to do HiSec PVP than for example Null PVP, than yes its „elite“.

But I would not use this term, there are simply some activities in the game which are easier, more for new players and some which simply need more experiences of game mechanics. This is good so otherwise there would be no Progression for players and the game would be boring.

In the real world if you start with any new activity you also start with the simple things and not right away with the most complex ones.

[FORCY_FUNTIMES_MEATWATER]

@Meditril

If you mean with „elite“ that you need more knowledge and experience of EVE mechanics to do HiSec PVP than for example Null PVP, than yes its „elite“.

Thanks for confirming HiSec ganking is elite PVP.

[safira_jomita]

@Meditril

The question is what do you mean with „elite“?
If you mean with „elite“ that you need more knowledge and experience of EVE mechanics to do HiSec PVP than for example Null PVP, than yes its „elite“.

But I would not use this term, there are simply some activities in the game which are easier, more for new players and some which simply need more experiences of game mechanics. This is good so otherwise there would be no Progression for players and the game would be boring.

In the real world if you start with any new activity you also start with the simple things and not right away with the most complex ones.

don’t feed those trolls. that’s all they do

[Aiko_Danuja]

@Meditril

HiSec PVP is for people who know all the detailed rules and limits of HiSec PVP and are able to make use of them. These aren’t the new players, even though they often use new alts for this task to protect their main characters

My main is safe in Delve, mining in a rorqual right now.

[Meditril]

@FORCY_FUNTIMES_MEATWATER

Thanks for confirming HiSec ganking is elite PVP.

If you feel better then call it elite PVP for yourself, I would rather call it Professional PVP but only if you really manage to get ISK positive out of this.

Elite PVP for me is if you manage to kill a much more capable and usually more blink ship with an inferior ship. So in my view killing a freighter or miner with just a dressy in HighSec is not elite. While killing a blink kiter with a cheap ceptor or even better a T1 frigate is elite PVP.

[FORCY_FUNTIMES_MEATWATER]

Ah got it, so this is elite PVP?

Vedmak | aequitas36 | Killmail

[Dracvlad]

Thanks for the explanation on your use of take exception, in English this is more than disagreeing in that it is a strong negative reaction. I understand because I have the same issue with nuances when I converse in French.

Wealth to you and I is obviously different, your example of a Venture is not creating wealth, it is creating a pittance or a low level of income. I am not a min/max ISK/hour player as I also count fun/hour in my approach but creating wealth is when you develop the skills and knowledge to do a high ISK/hour income. As such hisec is well behind the other areas and I am not complaining about that, as such the balance is right because there are players who base in hisec who will roam into lowsec and nullsec.

Regarding conflict, as you saw earlier I wanted entities to be able to declare either one to four wars without a structure and require a structure to do more than that, an alternative would be a war structure like an observatory thaht is easy to blow up. War decs were ruined by blanket war decs, when people talk about hisec and the lack of conflict they tend to heap abuse on the victims rather than look where the issue came from.

In terms of wars it was the blanket war decs in such of easy prey that caused the issues, most of these wars made no sense at all and were forcing people to give up on the game. Like it or not that was the reality of the issue. CCP had to do something and like many things CCP did the easiest thing and in doing so threw the baby out with the bath water so to speak. I have been in small level wars in the past and really had fun.

The structure issue with the core was another own goal by CCP in terms of hisec, they did this because of nullsec, not because of hisec. It was not needed for hisec because structures were already being removed at a fast pace. I knew that this was another issue in terms of making wars even less accessible for new players and told CCP so in the dev blog when this was first suggested, of course they never listen to hisec, they do it for nullsec reasons. And I can tell you that most nullsec entities find blowing up structures boring…

You have to be careful when you look at a game balance, those low hanging fruit are actually rather vulnerable, because they have low incomes and lower ability to sustain losses.

But I would point out to you that most new players that want to PvP are picked up very effectively by nullsec alliances looking for their cannon fodder. You don’t have to worry so much about the PvP angle because it is already covered by the players themselves. Generally now, people who want to do PvP as a new players will join a major alliance, then come back to hisec lowsec and look for their niche, just like they do with income.

I know what you are as we have talked before, but hisec is for people who want to be independent of the major alliances and who do not want to spend all their play time looking over their shoulder, they have a value in game and many pay subs with real money. Also this concept of wanting it to be super safe is also pretty much incorrect. As you know most AG were happy with ganking as such, they just wanted some of the advantages pulled back. Bumping was one, another is can flipping in a noob ship to make it easier to loot, another scooping through a DST, another is apply a lock out of -10’s from NPC stations so as to make them require a base.

The destroyers have a carrot, they make high ISK, also while they moan about multiple nerfs to their play style in fact they have had more buffs than anything else which has made it easier. I could list them all.

I think scarcity was made in nullsec as in the choices made by CCP to enable nullsec production ruined the game balance. This is necessary and is hard for them, but losses must matter in this game. Prior to this losses did not matter to certain nullsec alliances and that was just not healthy, but this has been an issue for some time, the previous moon system did this.

Hisec is a starter place for PvE players, nullsec is the starter place for PvP players at this point, there are exceptions but the reality is different to what you suggest.

I know some players will get upset or take exception at what I am saying here about PvP being nullsec, but this is aimed at the mass of new players interested in PvP being swept up by nullsec alliances. This is in fact Eve at its best, players doing solutions to meet their needs. Don’t shoot the messenger…

[Meditril]

@FORCY_FUNTIMES_MEATWATER

Ah got it, so this is elite PVP?
https://zkillboard.com/kill/93724667/

Assuming he was not AFK and had a real chance to fight back, this is in my opinion elite and professional PVP as I assume you looted him and made good profit. However a closer look at the location " Stargate (Halaima) (15.85km)" indicates that he was probably AFK travelling… in this case it was just professional but not elite.

By the way, this is elite PVP:
https://zkillboard.com/kill/92366098/

[Rocket_Hellfire]

Bye. o/

You won’t be missed.

[May_Q_Cry]

@Garlok_Minolto

It seems like wherever I plan to work towards, there is going to be some major change that isn’t economically connected - but rather from CCP

So much this, any ship or playstyle you put in the time and effort to skill towards will probably just end up getting nerfed anyways so what’s the point?

[Hug_Motsu]

@Daichi_Yamato

Oh well now that you’ve shown me the math i can see where CCP went wrong

it is not math just because it has numbers and is an equation system?

@Gerard_Amatin

Are you saying currently there is 0 risk?

nope, I’m saying that the reward TO risk ratio is 0.
that means the reward is zero.
(but I’m guessing you already know this, as you a known forum troll)

@Destiny_Corrupted

You might see these recent changes as something being taken away from you, but I’m seeing them as something being restored to me. My only regret is that they’re not going far enough be restoring most of the player freedom they’ve bled from the game, which means that despite scarcity, EVE remains in a very stale and predictable state.

No. I’m seeing it as the complete rubbish that it is. CCP puts out goals and motivates them by agenda XXXX…
and then… CCP changes the game counterproductive to those goals and stated agendas (with the help of CSM).

@Destiny_Corrupted

The game can flourish by going back to its roots and catering to difficulty/survival fans.

doubt that, it’s not like ccp has the same kind of RL-expenditures it had 15 years ago. to stay alive they have to cater to a big audience.

@L_gonic_D_gingar

People come into bars and MMO’s to lose themselves for the moment.

this is why I play games. and I’m pretty sure all casual players (the big audience) feel this way as well.

@L_gonic_D_gingar

. Hey? Here is an idea. If a mission would suddenly spawn into a LEVEL 5 6 7 and beyond the missioner would have to invite other players.

that’s one idea of many good ones. Sadly, everyone on CSM is: “hey there I care for PVP, vote on me”

@Daichi_Yamato

Farming was too easy in some activities, risk too low in others, bad wealth distribution, insane stockpiles, losses were meaningless, an overly independent null and that there was a lot of botting and afk play.
So CCP have chosen a, relatively, short term shock that will hopefully lead to long term gains.

rofl. this “chock” could have been done in 1 patch, and it could have been done in a way it would only be affecting the problems areas…

[Destiny_Corrupted]

@Hug_Motsu

@Destiny_Corrupted

The game can flourish by going back to its roots and catering to difficulty/survival fans.

doubt that, it’s not like ccp has the same kind of RL-expenditures it had 15 years ago. to stay alive they have to cater to a big audience.

You can doubt anything you want, big boy.

Survival games make up 3 of Steam’s top 10 list, and PUBG’s daily peak is 20x higher than EVE’s on one of EVE’s good days. We can replace this entire MMO’s community with that of Hunt: Showdown, and there would be more people on the server. And that’s just one fairly minor game.

We. Do. Not. Need. You.

[Gerard_Amatin]

@Hug_Motsu

nope, I’m saying that the reward TO risk ratio is 0.
that means the reward is zero.
(but I’m guessing you already know this, as you a known forum troll)

Life is easy when you can choose to ignore what people write and can call them a troll instead.

Let me try explaining it again: If a ratio of A/B is equal to 0, then either A is 0 or B is infinite. So when you’re saying that

the risk/reward ratio is currently at 0.

you’re saying that either the reward is infinite (which it clearly isn’t) or you’re saying that the risk is 0.

I know you, which makes me think you’re not trying to tell us the risk is 0. So please be less confusing with your use of the word ‘ratio’.

Instead, try “I believe the current risk is too high for the rewards, we need less risk and more rewards”. Then everyone understands what you’re trying to say without breaking their heads over the wrong use of mathematics:

@Hug_Motsu

nerfing bounties more would only mean the risk/reward ratio is on -1

This part is even more confusing, as the negative sign suggests an inverse relation between risk and reward, where risk goes down when reward goes up and the other way around. I’m pretty sure that’s not what you mean either.

Now you have two choices: either you call me a troll again and make the same mistake in the future. Or you learn from it.

[ZhaoMin]

@Hug_Motsu

@Destiny_Corrupted

The game can flourish by going back to its roots and catering to difficulty/survival fans.

doubt that, it’s not like ccp has the same kind of RL-expenditures it had 15 years ago. to stay alive they have to cater to a big audience.

As for the choice of niche or larger audience, I prefer the former and agrees with @Destiny_Corrupted. But like I said in post #199. in the past few years CCP opened Pandora’s Box.

• They made disposable alphas
• They made supercap ratting/rorq mining go way out of control
• They made it so that anyone with decent wallet can just inject their way to the above activities

Then…comes their solution, which only partially closed the floodgate that did not address the problem.

• Alphas are still disposable and perhaps used by more vets than real newbies to exploit various game mechanics
• Activities that caused the problem did not die away, those already made their way to access the crazy ISK/Hour tools gets by just fine, while the real newbie with average Joe income and cannot afford injectors and just want to do some entry level L4 for casual pews say, can’t even afford his first BS anymore within a “honeymoon” period and forced to stick with mind numbing sub 250 dps vessel of choice waiting to “specialize” AND “Grind x 3” whichever comes first…or drop out cause they may have to retrain into other skills when other people suggests different activities…wears them out. (Remember I’m talking about average Joe newbie who also has average Joe RL income, NOT veteran New Toon spammers).
• Worst of all, injectors for the wallet warriors runs rampant and instead of addressing them, CCP are selling FREE SP with a good portion of their “Packs” or just directly sells million+ SP for cash. Topped with erm, shameless popup ads directed at newbies that says “you got fuked? Here! a coffee’s worth of coins and you can retrain, get virtual rich so we can fck you again!”

Whiners can whine all they like about how ISK/h was not the same, no we don’t need them (those that their only job is to maximize exploitation of resources in the system within the game boundaries)! But I see bigger problems that CCP introduced that CCP itself doesn’t want to address, this prevents the game to being able to go back to it’s roots that you had hoped - at all.

[Inxentas_Ultramar]

Well, to be precise I did expect stuff to change over time as that is indeed the nature of the game. But does that not mean it is fair, that a player evaluates the game after every change, in order to decide whether (s)he wishes to keep playing?

It is just that this particular change ended the gameplay we were invested in at the time. We indeed relied on a specific mechanic for a long time because it was one of the few ways we enjoyed making ISK. After it’s deletion we simply had to content with the end to passive ISK streams.

I just want to point out that we did not expect anything to continue. We were realistic in that; we knew it wasn’t going to last and we did look for alternatives we would enjoy. Those we could simply not find. I understand that from the perspective of a player, we “backed ourselves into a wall” and “made a mistake”, but from our perspective CCP made changes that resulted in the loss of our subscriptions.

And I am not angry about that or anything, but you are right: we could not change gears, because no available gears we were supposed to change into were a good fit for us. Eve has a lot to do indeed, but when even in that enormous pile of content I can’t find anything to do I really enjoy (or have to do unenjoyable content to pay for the enjoyable content)… well, I just put the game down in favor of other games.

After all it’s just a game.