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I specifically said in the opening post that I never thought I was entitled to anything, nor did I want or expect anything to be handed to me on a silver platter.
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My complaint is when I see others being entitled, and being handed things to them on a silver platter.
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When I said or implied that I make no ISK, I meant it comparatively-speaking, i.e. compared to my friend in the big name player sov nullsec cartel, and compared to the level of risk, and level of effort we both put in. I make 1% of what he makes, I take 100 times the risk he does, and put in 100 times the effort he does. He can log in for 20 minutes and make more than I make in a day.
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I didn’t say that big groups don’t deserve their space because they can defend it. I said that if this is really the only way CCP intends for players to play, and if ‘risk-reward’ is just bullsh!t nonsense (which it is), then lets point out that the emperor has no clothes, lets quit trolling players, and lets eliminate all other designations from the game (low sec, wormholes, npc null, etc).
Yeah. I did not mean to imply that you said so. I meant it more as “even if you want to have it, if you can’t make it, then that’s on you”.
I don’t see how people are being handed something on a silver platter, except renter trash who believe they are entitled because they’re paying rent, without actually ever having put any effort into it.
Part 3 is what baffles me the most. Excluding renter trash who deserves nothing at all, why would anyone in a big group of people, who can defend their space, not be entitled to make money in said space?
This just makes no sense to me. It makes you look like (just look like) someone who feels entitled to something he never actually did anything for. Sure, your friend might not have done anything either … but he sacrifices his “freedom” by joining the group that makes sure he has space to farm in.
That’s what i truly not understand. Why you believe that you, as someone who “does not belong there” (compared to those who made sure the space belongs to them!) should earn anything at all.
Can you explain that to me?
… drac again wanting my attention. 
I used to do what you did and made a reasonable amount of ISK over an extended period doing it, however lack of a second account made moving around difficult, so I stuck to one system. My first period of play in Stain was exactly the same as you.
I remember making 25m an hour belt ratting and being laughed at by people making more than that in a single tick in sov nullsec, but I had the satisfaction of knowing that I did that against the odds, with people actively trying to stop me in system and I having to play cat and mouse.
So I understand what you are saying having done it, however the scale of resources needed to maintain sov do justify this level of ISK generation at least for those that get stuck in.
… and yet roaming fleets usually consist of:
- for 0.0-sec people: T2 fitted T1/faction ships with rare T2/pirate ships for logistics/special purposes
- for WH people: T2/T3 ships with deadspace fits.
Not mentioning about implants…
I didn’t say they weren’t entitled to make money in their space. But why are they entitled to make money in that many orders of magnitude over other people who are taking much more risk and who are working much harder and with much more effort? Is there not supposed to be some principal of ‘risk-reward’? Yes or no? Is there not supposed to be some principal of ‘effort/time-reward’? Yes or no?
Also, you and others act as if all these players are doing something to achieve this level of entitled ultra-easy ISK. “They are defending their space!” or whatever other B.S. is being spewed. No, my friend defends no space. He just flies around in that space and does what he wants - and ‘what he wants’ is not in any way being involved in ‘defending space.’ And I have other friends just like him.
In essence my friends in groups like this do two things that I do not do or have not done. 1) Fill out some corp application and hit enter, and 2) Pay taxes - in his case around 10%.
I did not talk about “defending it”. I was talking about “conquering it”. No matter if sov null or npc null, people conquered their space … and of course defend it in some way.
Your friend is equal to being a child born in a group that managed to conquer land. He did nothing to conquer that land, but he got born into it. Something his ancestors fought for. Your friend is reaping the benefits off of that. Sure, i won’t deny that it irks me a bit as well when you say that he does nothing to help defending it, because that just makes him look like a rather weak leech on “society”, just like someone who never has a job and just lives off of wellfare, aka the work of others. (excluding people with disabilities/etc of course, which is a different topic).
My point is that it is space for big groups, because it can be space for big groups. That’s just natural. When there are big groups around, who do not tolerate little guys, then it’s within their right to make sure that you leave their area. sov null, npc null makes no difference here, because Might makes Right.
Fact is that your friend is part of the group and you’re not. As you’re an outsider you either need to seriously step up your game, join the group or accept that you’ve got nothing. It is not unfair or skewed towards big groups, it’s literally how humanity worked for millenia.
Btw … just so you know my view on things and tangentially: I am absolutely no fan of the CSM being mostly about nullsec. I am not blaming them for that, though, because it’s how humanity works. The fact that highseccers are highseccers with no sense for unity (or “nationalism” compared to nullsec groups) is the problem highseccers have when it comes to CSM and “power” in general.
From my perspective there are groups who put effort into conquering their space and they deserve to have it. They also deserve to grow, just like humanity grows, but in EVE we can’t give birth so “recruiting” is the next best thing. On the other hand, renter trash deserves nothing, because they actually did nothing. Sadly though nullsec alliances believe they should sell their space to trash, and it sadly is within their rights to do so. They earned that right.
if your friend is renter trash i suggest making an afk cloaker, hoping that the big guys selling it to him do not give a ■■■■.
vOv
Yup, I didn’t complain about that. If someone can make me leave their space, have at.
Sure it is skewed towards the big groups if that’s how it is programmed into the game (and it is). Also, I said nothing of fairness, I said CCP should quit trolling the players and own up to what the reality of this game is, no bullsh!t, because what they have put out is fake news.
Also, your pointing out here and there that ‘this is how humanity works’ or ‘this is the natural order of things’ or whatever, is misguided. You’d have every right to point that out in the real world. But we are talking about a constructed reality. Things aren’t the way they are in-game because it’s ‘how humanity works’ or ‘it is the natural order of things’ - THERE IS NO HUMANITY IN THE GAME, AND THERE IS NOTHING NATURAL IN THE GAME. The game is a bunch of organized bits (binary digits) flickering around inside a bazillion transistors. What I’m saying is, THE GAME WAS PROGRAMMED THE WAY IT IS. It can be programmed any number of ways, you see. But this is the way it was programmed. I am simply pointing that out, and asking if that’s what CCP truly intends, and is that what we as players truly want.
uhm … yeah … no. It is a big amount of land and people are free to grab it. People get together to grab it and call it their own. People defend it against others who want it as well. That is literally how humanity worked for millenia. It does not matter if the land is actually space, it is still the same basic thing. There are actual human beings playing it, doing the same thing people did in the past. You failing to understand that is on you, not me.
I even have practical experience as the former resident outlaw of hek and former “quasi sov holder”. People loved me there. People helped me fighting off those i did not want there. Might makes Right and anyone who complained got a collective boot shoved up his candy ass.
It is deliberately programmed to work that way. It could be done better, instead of having stupid sov mechanics screwing with how things work naturally, but if CCP believes that the “little guy” should have a better chance then so be it.
Again … it is pretty natural behaviour. You failing to understand that is your problem, not mine.
This thread could easily be concluded with this:
Whatever the actual source of your rant is, you really don’t do yourself a favour.
Translation:
Everyone is our enemy and must die. We are so blatantly stupid that we kill our own content and cry rivers of tears to CCP to force our sworn enemies whom we have never met before in our miserable lives to come to us and get farmed by our automates remote server versus sworn enemy sooper dooper dooper ships and station.
Every sworn enemy of us who flies in our farmville online gajillions per hour farmlands must automatically be killed, so it never does it again.
This idea of ‘risk vs. reward’ seems often misunderstood. The idea is that the more valuable resources that spawn into this game should be in the more riskier part of space. The more reward there is, the more risk you need to take to access those rewards in order to balance resource generation into the universe, generally by being made more vulnerable to the other players. But the risk, is largely a mechanical risk set by the game mechanics, and what the other players do to mitigate and capitalize on that risk is very hard for the developer to control.
The people next door to you in sov nullsec are at the exact same mechanical risk to you. The same weapons and ships function there as in NPC null. It just happens, that under that set of game mechanics, large groups are going to have the advantage, sharing resources and defence duties, so of course they are going to be able to earn more in that environment than a solo player who has to rely on evasion and flying cheap to mitigate risks. That is less true in highsec, but very true in nullsec, a space where the mechanics favour large groups the most. That’s just how the game works.
Is nullsec too safe for large groups? I’d say probably yes, but this has been a tough thing for CCP to address for whatever reasons. But when it comes down to it, you are playing in a space that advantages teamwork and cooperation, and you don’t have a team.
You are earning more reward than a solo player in lowsec or highsec where NPCs offer some protection for your activities. There the mechanical risk is lower, and thus the rewards are lower. Still even there, you are going to not earn as much as those that band together to pool resources and share costs. Eve’s PvE is balanced on risk vs. reward (as well as effort/time vs. reward), but is also intrinsically set up so that it benefits more from friends. If you are going to make any claim to a ‘risk vs. reward’ balance being out of whack, you have to at least compare similarly sized groups with similarly sized assets/skills who play for similar amounts of time per week. Claiming that a large group can more efficiently exploit an area of space than a solo player isn’t unexpected, nor is it frankly a problem.
You are not entitled to a payday for just taking a risk and putting in the time. You are playing against other players, so you have to outplay them as well to get ahead. This is especially hard to do as nullsec has the least restriction on a group bringing all its force against a solo player, so if you aren’t up to the challenge (and I have no reason do doubt you won’t figure out how to live there eventually), find another area of space more conducive to solo/small group play like lowsec or a lower-class wormhole.
I made no complaints about people taking space, defending it, etc. And in fact have restated several times that I have no complaints about this. This is a straw man argument. You are putting words in my mouth, and arguing against things I have not argued for.
Read the above response again, but remove “taking space, defending it” and insert “might makes right.”
I don’t really care if pointing out CCP’s trolling, pointing out the game’s flaws, etc. is construed by others as ‘envy.’ It doesn’t really matter to me. Whether motivated by envy, or a bazillion other things, what’s important to me is whether it is true or not, and whether it should be fixed or not. I have stated 10 times and will state again that if this is the way CCP wants the game to be played, remove the ‘troll’ elements from the game (wormholes, etc) and just have highsec and sov nullsec. Alternatively, remove high sec too, and just have sov null.
They don’t have the same mechanical risk/reward. They have generators spewing anoms left and right, and even (apparently) have generators spewing extremely lucrative relic/data sites (at least that’s what my friend understands to be the case, and what he’s attributing his success to).
So no, they don’t have the same mechanical risk/reward. And they don’t have the same actual risk, although granted they might have the same theoretical risk.
Furthermore, bring wormholes into it and you have no argument whatsoever. It’s objectively more risky, mechanically-speaking, by a wide margin, it’s much more difficult to live there logistically-speaking and otherwise, and the rewards are piss-poor compared to what it’s raining out there in sov null.
You people continue to misconstrue the issue over and over again, no matter how many times it is spelled out.
FRACK LARGE GROUPS. That’s a different issue. I have not issued a complaint against the existence of large groups, nor of whatever natural or organic advantages large groups would have over small groups or solo groups. I’M FINE WITH THAT. The existence of large groups is NOT what makes sov null way, way more lucrative and better in risk/reward/pain-in-the-ass than, say, living in a wormhole.
Everybody keeps telling me I’m not entitled to X, while of course reserving the right to be perfectly entitled to whatever it is they think they are entitled to (ISK raining down in sov null like mana from heaven).
in regards to nullsec cartels i think something is in the planning somewhere to make the fringes of thier space less hospitable and less open to being ‘renter’ space
i certainly hope so, having these huge swathes of space uninhabited simply because one would have to rent off people doesnt seem right; pirates and entrepeneurs should be able to thrive in these environments and small groups should be able to operate outside of the large groups. As it stands space doesnt really feel like space at all and the game feels smaller for it.
One could argus that some wormhole entities renting out highclass wormholes is the same thing,some of which would be true except wh evictions are incredibly time consuming and tbvh a clever group could still operate within these or raid them, you can even live in drifter and shattered wormholes and avoid detection for the most part.
No but really, wat?
What does this mean?
Null sec is the most organised and has a lobby group in the form of the CSM. CCP themselves are clueless on their own game so they readily accept what they’re being told. Result: CCP favours null sec and by that I mean specific groups in null sec.
Simple logic.
It “means” that he does not comprehend the argument as a whole and instead seperates away important details/parts of the argument, leaving only that which he believes actually matters, which is not really enough to actually create a “bigger picture” of “the problem”.
As he’s apparently incapable of including more parts than just what he wrongly thinks of as the relevant parts of this “discussion”, there is not really any point going on with this.
vOv
In fact what I meant was, CCP is trolling us with wormholes and other areas of space. The joke’s on you if you are trying to scrape a living inside a wormhole, in npc null, in lowsec, etc. The only thing that CCP favors, and the only thing that matters, is sov null.
These come with increased risk. They require effort and vulnerable infrastructure in space that you, as a solo player, don’t have to deploy or protect. None of your past effort or assets are at risk in NPC null until you undock the way you play, unlike the sov holders who have to take on all-comers, or lose their stuff and their upgrades.
You can argue they are too lucrative for the cost/risk associated with them, and I might agree with you, but they aren’t risk free.
I only mention wormholes as even if they are more mechanically risky, they ability for the large groups to project force against you is severely curtailed, especially in the low class ones. For a solo player that might not matter much as a handful of ships is going to beat you so it doesn’t matter if it is a handful or the whole Imperium supercap fleet that drops on you, but it a more level playing field for small groups.
The nullsec mechanics aren’t restricted like that so force projection isn’t limited. As I said this probably doesn’t matter to you as you will be beaten by almost any amount of force, but it is a consideration for aspiring groups.
It is. There is only so little risk because the big groups are larger than all of their neighbours and the can project the apex force in the area. Nullsec mechanics work that way to the N+1 group is at significant advantage. That reduces the risk of being attacked, at least head on, by anyone.
Are the system upgrades available to such alpha groups too much? Maybe I guess. As I said, this is hard to quantify and even harder to balance. Definitely, sovnull has had a bunch of candy sent its way over the last 3-4 years so I am sympathetic to the arguement that perhaps its time to turn up the mechanical risk on them somewhat. The trick is to do that in a way that doesn’t just benefit the biggest groups in dominating the smaller ones.
Even though my own experience in WHs differs from yours? That 30mil sites were the bottom level I routinely found?
Or that Null is very easily exploitable by a WH dweller?
If you are arguing that your risk/reward, level of effort, convenience, etc. is better off in wormholes than sov null… even those arguing against me here aren’t going to agree with you on that. Either way, no skin off my nose. If that’s what you believe, great, and I’m glad wormhole life is so good for you.
Well, we may have some news in EVE Vegas, if the new EP already has figured what he wants to do. Or maybe don’t.
Personally I think the doomsday clock is set at November 2021. Used to be 2023 until I played for some days after the abyss and noticed in what poor shape is highsec, worse than i had imagined.
CCP Seagull’s legacy is a game where, for the same money, some players get a Lamborghini and others get a Yugo, based largely on random events (like meeting the right or the wrong people) and their own brain… and CCP’s funky ideas about risk/reward and EVE being a privilege not a gift.