all I read here is correct and I agree totally . just hope ccp has to grasp on the issues with in the game …
I dont have cap stuff but I do understand what this change means and … its quite shitty, there would had been way better options compared to this one … anyhow, I remember when the game had 50k+ players … doing this kind of changes without meaning its just simply nonsense!
Actually there is a blueprint … but what is more interesting is that you not only can reprocess the new cyno generator but also the cyno field itself (check the reprocessing changes https://www.hoboleaks.space/) 
If I recall, a Nereus can passively tank more than 500 DPS, and fully fitted, it costs a couple million isk. Where are you going where this sort of ship would certainly die, or die so often it would make transporting stuff unprofitable?
I’m genuinely curious as to where the issue lies. Perhaps there’s something I’m not understanding.
So do you haul? I’m not asking to be flip. Now I’ve not done logistics for a corp where routes were static, but I’ve hauled a ton of contract work. I would have to fly cyno’s all over low and null to get them in place. Now I’d love to have enough alts to just leave them everywhere but that would be far more accounts. In doing so I’d have to fly through, say the LS pipe to aridia. Out to solitude. NPC 0.0 space.
Please try that in a Nereus. It has no combat ability, so how much it can tank is largely pointless. Once tackled it will die.
. . . it was a joke. 
863 ehp/s passive tank for 12.4M + cyno cost.
That doesn’t mean it’s gonna get where it’s going. Point it when it comes through a gate, get a couple of friends to help you kill it. Hell, a single Kiki’ll do more DPS than that, and that’s a destroyer.
You can push it higher, to just over 1k/s ehp, but that’s got less than 90s of capacitor life, so you’re still not getting off the gate or back through it.
I appreciate the well thought out comment, but I fundamentally disagree with what you’re saying. The problem is precisely that every capital fight opportunity is taken, or at least that every capital fight opportunity could be taken, with little effort on either side (which is the same mechanic that causes the hotdrop problem). The only real questions are whether you have the numbers to win the fight and how concerned you are about escalation. This has a tendency to massively favor mega-coalitions that can muster enormous supercapital fleets, which limits the gameplay for any group of people who may want to do something different in nullsec.
Sure, the ships themselves could be nerfed, but how exactly do you nerf capitals and supers to be balanced with subcaps without making them awful or making them atrocious to play? Do we go back to the era of Slowcats, where you can’t be beaten, but where your opponent can keep you on grid for 8 hours with bubbles? Is that better?
I think that limiting the ability of capitals/supers to get to the fight is by far the best solution to this problem, though I also agree that there are probably better ways to implement it than limiting cynos to recons and BLOPS. Personally, I would like to see spool up timers and different sized cynos with mass limits. No bringing in a 250-man super fleet instantly off of a Hurricane that threw a cyno in their utility high.
No, it isn’t. In fact, most of them are religiously avoided.
As with so many others, you’re seeing a symptom and labeling it the problem. If a large supercapital fleet wasn’t an absolute must for holding space—ie, if it didn’t represent an apex force that can only be countered by a larger supercapital fleet—then the large blocs wouldn’t have the need to build up the massive supercap forces they have.
We never actually left it. At no point has an apex force like the Wrecking Ball been in any danger from subcapital forces. At no point have supercapitals stopped being an apex force, or an absolute necessity for anyone who wants to carve out and hold space of their own.
It’s not their ability to get to a fight that’s causing problems. It’s the fact that these are indispensible ships, of which you need absolutely as many as you can get, and so people and groups don’t risk them, and don’t lose them in any appreciable amounts.
You beat me on the reply. 
It’s the fact that these are indispensable ships, of which you need absolutely as many as you can get, and so people and groups don’t risk them, and don’t lose them in any appreciable amounts.
^ this is actually causing a majority of the problem, supers are created much faster than destroyed due to how coveted they are. With a game built around profit and destruction, mass wealth and accumulation of assets causes stagnation. Going into a fleet fight used to be a bit nerve wracking, but now the individual risk in subcap fights nowadays is extremely low. We need an age of destruction more so than chaos to get things back on track.
I haven’t hauled with jump freighters, but I saw it done in nullsec empires. In that context, small roving gangs or solo PvPers would struggle to break a Nereus. If it was bigger, we’d fight it, or just shrug off the loss and replace the ship.
I can see the point you make about more solo/freelance type of work. Logistics out to deep lowsec like Aridia (where I live now), or NPC null is hard and this would make it harder. However, I’m not sure that’s a bad thing. Having sparsely populated areas where logistics suck give the game variety. After years in null with nullsec empires, I got a little burned out and decided to live out in Aridia specifically because it didn’t have a lot of people in it, and the people who live there are mostly pretty independent because they can’t depend on logistic networks.
I’m also not sure that the issue is insurmountable. In lowsec, MWD/cloak is very effective. In null, it’s more complicated, but not impossible. An alt with a blockade runner, a travel captor for scouting, a T1 indy blueprint, and some building materials should be all you need, and then you can just build your cyno ship on site. Once it’s built, you can leave it there for future trips or just reprocess it.
Yea so if you are talking about the cyno on the undock, sure. In some cases that could be a win as you won’t get the random frigate able to successfully pop the cyno. But as I explained lighting the cyno at the end is only part of the battle.
Harder is fine. In some ways the original cyno option made it harder. It was hard enough flying noobships through these areas without getting popped. So I trained all my cyno alts into inty’s so I could at least make it to the destination, refit and light. with covert it is still basically safe in low, but 0.0 still adds to the challenge as bubbled gate camps are actually often good at decloacking a covert ops.
not insurmountable, but highly annoying. Hoping to get out to 0.0 after running a BR through bubble camps etc only to sit around waiting for a ship to be built, IF you manage to find a station at your destination or nearby with manufacturing slots.
The thing is, that doesn’t make it more challenging. just more tedious. More tedious isn’t fun.
It would be maybe acceptable if they gave some sort of ship options other than other haulers to be cynos. Heck even a ship I could package and fit in a BR. They are pretty nice but they are far more challenging to fly safely, especially in 0.0. Getting out of a bubble camp IS challenging. But having to do that and then wait to build one?
And you may not directly think that you are more independent in aridia because of logistics networks, but who do you think hauls in the goods that go in the local market? (well not me if this change stands, because it won’t be worth the hassle).
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And this is a thing CCP doesn’t seem to understand.
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Sadly that would require CCP rewriting 5 years of development into something that gives large groups a reason to fight but still allow small/er groups to survive - I personally don’t think they can, they don’t know how without gutting the game.
So instead we will continue to get changes that overall affect nothing but the ability and will to actually play the game for thousands of subscribers.
These changes will see the largest groups continue to grow as they are the “safest” place to play.
CCP is unfortunately trying to “fix” issues they created with simple, cheap to implement changes without a good understanding of the issues they are trying to fix.
NB; What they are doing, including SP give away’s, pointless GM events, etc, may look good on paper when you read the “metrics” the way you want them to appear but reality is, nothing is changing for the better as far as real issues are concerned
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So you have never done alliance or corp or even JFing your own stuff but think you know what it takes?
Almost any small roving gang can brake nereus’s and a bunch of stuff cruiser and above can solo them.
Hauling anywhere outside of NPC Low or null… so most of nullsec space will be a nightmare to JF to… I see a lot of people saying dumb stuff like just move mats and a bpc and build there…. OK so every mid has to have Manufacturing Plant I installed and online on every mid….
This is fine for the blocks that are static but if a small corp/alliance/or solo guy wants to do a random deployment for a week or two puts massive cost implications to just move a few ships down.
This is a reverse optimal change… Making it harder for the little guy and a small pain for the blocks.
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That’s what they want. They don’t give a ■■■■ about any “small guys”… unless theyre hunting easy kills, because “it makes eve dangerous grrrr”
It’s ■■■■■■■ retarded from any logical standpoint beyond “im an edgelord heil chaos im the dangerrrr and ur a carebear quit eve” which… is illogical anyways so whatever
I addressed this previously. Here’s what I said before:
Capital fights are avoided because of the high risk of escalation due to the ease of getting capital and super fleets on field.
It’s a bit of a chicken or the egg situation. You’re correct in saying that if large supercapital fleets did not represent an apex force (I.E. because they can’t practically be brought to bear), large blocs wouldn’t have a need to build up supercap forces. At the same time, I think it’s fair to ask the question: If large supercapital fleets did not represent an apex force, would smaller entities feel such a need to align themselves with an entity that has a large supercapital fleet? I would argue the answer is probably no (though the break up of some of the larger blocs would probably still take years).
That’s a fair point. I’m making the argument that limiting the practical number that can get to a fight is the easiest, and least painful way to fundamentally change their role from that of an apex force, to that of a support force. They can still be very strong and feel amazing to play, without making everything smaller redundant, and without making their use a strategically risky proposition.
further proof you dont understand eve at all, ill just continue to watch the active player count drop further while you pretend this shits successfull
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Still waiting if CCP going to reverse this so called ‘industrial cyno’ crap…and if not do you get SP refund?
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To be totally honest, I don’t think I’ve ever used the local market in Aridia. I haul my own stuff in a blockade runner, a deep space transport, or a travel Dramiel. When I lived in null and alliance logistics weren’t cutting it, I did my own hauling in blockade runners (I have some painful losses to prove it), and then cargo-expanded T3Cs. Now that I think of it, you could probably just skip the blockade runner altogether and just train your alt to a T3C. I think it would have enough room for the materials for a T1 indy and the ozone to light a cyno. It would be a time sink, but not particularly difficult or complicated
That being said, I can see what you’re saying about something you could fit in a blockade runner. I would prefer a T1 hauler being able to be repackaged down to say 5000-7500m3, so you could carry 1 of them along with a ceptor for scouting to make it a little easier to avoid bubble camps.