Drone Boat Proteus is crying, ccp please adjust it?

[Scipio_Artelius]

@Lord_Xiskogen

I have checked page up and down on zkillboard, and only a small fraction of the fits i see use the drone subsystem

Actually, I went and pulled the data to check this also. It’s not a small fraction. For the last 1000 losses of the Proteus, just under 1/3rd of them have the Drone Synthesis Projector fitted (ie. not in the subsystem hangar, but fit to the ship):

Noting, that we have to assume that the use of the offensive modules across losses is a reflection of use, and not strength of fit (ie. We have to assume that the hybrid is being used more, not that hybrid fits are weaker than drone fits so die more, and therefore should be buffed instead). I think that’s a pretty safe assumption to make.

So it isn’t a small percentage and with only 3 possible offensive modules, almost 1/3rd of losses being drone fits isn’t an under use in my book.

In addition, comparing the total kills in pvp that involve the Proteus, the numbers even post T3C nerf are still around 10000 kills per month. That’s still well over 300 kills per day with a Proteus on the attackers list, and if the assumption above is correct, then about 1/3rd of the time (or over 100 kills every single day) involve a drone bonused Proteus.

It’s being used fine as a drone ship.

Lastly, looking at the kill:loss ratio of the Proteus, despite the nerf, it is still averaging in the range of 20-25 kills for every single loss, with almost a 1/3rd of the time being fit for drones. Compare that to the Gila and the Ishtar, which both have a K:D ratio under 5, and yet they are considered strong drone ships, and the Proteus as a drone boat should be weaker than the PIshtar (and it may be, not making a judgement on that, just that as a principle of T2 to T3, the T3 as a flexible generalist ship should be weaker than the specialised T2 ship):

Drone based proteus is doing fine in pvp.

[Lord_Xiskogen]

Now that is losses, but the ship as a drone boat is very attractive to use in pve. Nothing about this data suggest the use of the drone boat in pvp is on a balanced lvl.

@Scipio_Artelius

and if the assumption above is correct,

That’s a big assumtion, as my guess is that most of the deaths are some stupid ones getting caught while ratting or on a gate camp.

@Scipio_Artelius

it is still averaging in the range of 20-25 kills for every single loss, with almost a 1/3rd of the time being fit for drones.

Really don’t like it when you actually treat this as a fact.

@Scipio_Artelius

Drone based proteus is doing fine in pvp.

Not satisfied.

[Scipio_Artelius]

@Lord_Xiskogen

That’s a big assumtion, as my guess is that most of the deaths are some stupid ones getting caught while ratting or on a gate camp.

So then you’d be arguing that hybrid Proteus are weak (since they are killed more), and should be buffed instead, surely?

I think you’d be pulling a long bow to argue that, so if you don’t think the losses on zkill reflect use of the modules, why even look at zkill at all, which you seem to now be using in your OP as justification for not seeing many drone fit taking a look?

@Lord_Xiskogen

Not satisfied.

I’m sure you’re not, because the available data doesn’t support your agenda. No surprise that you want to dismiss it when it doesn’t support, but want to use it in the OP when you think it does.

[Lord_Xiskogen]

@Scipio_Artelius

So then you’d be arguing that hybrid Proteus are weak (since they are killed more), and should be buffed instead, surely?

You must be high again, seriously! I have never said so, and this is why this assumption of yours don’t really hold up. It’s pretty simple, THEY ARE USED MORE. So obviously they die more too, and their kill/death ratio might be even stronger than 25kills per loss if you factor out the drone boats that is in the equation.

@Scipio_Artelius

I’m sure you’re not, because the available data doesn’t support your agenda.

No, it is because the data available doesn’t actually address every aspect of this complexity.

Again, think of the drone boat proteus as a ishtar that can much easier go through gate camps with nullified and cloaky subsystems. Pretty good to use to do escalations right? So if 1/3 die as a drone boat, my only thoughts is that most of these die while ratting or trying to escape someone hunting them.

The kill/death ratio with only the drone boat subsystem might be way lower than what you assume, like 5, or maybe in the negatives? Who knows, that’s my issue, the data you bring into the picture doesn’t really address the actual facts…

[Scipio_Artelius]

@Lord_Xiskogen

It’s pretty simple, THEY ARE USED MORE. So obviously they die more too

Yeah that’s what I said, but then you said that assumption was a big assumption (I assume you mean, not really a reflection of use).

Which is it? We need to make some assumption, otherwise what’s even the basis for your view that they are weak (we’ve still not seen any actual data from you, fits, setups, nothing)? So which assumptions can we make? Only the ones that support your argument?

If we can assume the losses reflect use, then the Drone Synthesis Projector is fit to almost 1/3rd of Proteus ships involved in pvp (from the loss data).

If we can’t assume loss reflects use, then surely the hybrid must be weaker since it dies so much more, and should be buffed instead (that would be crazy).

To me, having looked at ship loss over a number of years, in general the fits of losses reflect the meta at the time. It’s been shown over and over and over, hence why I think it’s a safe assumption to make, to continue the discussion.

[Lord_Xiskogen]

@Scipio_Artelius

Yeah that’s what I said, but then you said that assumption was a big assumption (I assume you mean, not really a reflection of use).

It’s a big assumption that you think the kill/death ratio is the same with drone subsystem as the hybrid subsystem!
If the K/D of the drone subsystem is closer to 1, that means the actual popularity of hybrids compared to drones is very MUCH in favor of the hybrids.
And that is without addressing weather the drone boat losses are even being used for PvP.
Again, could be they get caught while PVEing.
God I wish I could just block you.

[Scipio_Artelius]

@Lord_Xiskogen

If the K/D of the drone subsystem is closer to 1

Show me the data?

Otherwise, you are just making stuff up to try to fit your own argument, and ignoring the data that is verifiable by everyone.

So give me the data that shows that.

[Scipio_Artelius]

If the K’D ratio of drone fits is closer to 50, then that means the popularity of hybrids is lower, they just die more.

Do you see the problem with making that argument? There’s just no basis. You can say, if it’s closer to 1, but conversely it’s just as possible to say if it’s closer to 50.

Neither has any reliable way to know.

But I’ve looked at ships losses over several years and the fits do match the meta at the time in terms of use. It has played out over and over and over.

However, if we are going to ignore the data, then how in the OP now, is the following claim even relevant:

@Lord_Xiskogen

only a small fraction of the fits i see use the drone subsystem, and a even smaller percentage of those again was fitted for pvp

How can that be relevant, if the data we can actually look at is dismissable with if’s that we can’t know one way or the other. How can we know that drone fit Proteus are not used much?

[Lord_Xiskogen]

@Scipio_Artelius

Do you see the problem with making that argument? There’s just no basis. You can say, if it’s closer to 1, but conversely it’s just as possible to say if it’s closer to 50.

Yes I see, so why did you come with your data in the first place? Just shut up, because your points doesn’t have enough data to disprove or give your own arguments more weight.

@Scipio_Artelius

How can we know that drone fit Proteus are not used much?

Because it is a attractive PVE ship.

[Scipio_Artelius]

@Lord_Xiskogen

Just shut up, because your points doesn’t have enough data to disprove or give your own arguments more weight.

This is a complete waste of time.

Good luck trying to convince CCP to make changes when the only response is to not even consider that your current proposal could be modified to work better, or that it’s argument is currently weak.

There’s no point even trying to get an idea progressed when it’s just “twat” and “shut up”.

[Lord_Xiskogen]

Thanks, the only thing I want, is to not have you post in here.
Also I don’t really know if the ship needs rebalancing, at least I give voice to something I think needs adjusting to make it more desired for pvp use, CCP knows if they were to look into it. And I have done my job if they even see the headline.

[Dravick_Afterthought]

@Lord_Xiskogen

Thanks, the only thing I want, is to not have you post in here.

Important to note, folks, that this is Lord Xiskogen’s private forum, and you’re only allowed to post things that agree with him !

[Lord_Xiskogen]

@Dravick_Afterthought

Important to note, folks, that this is Lord Xiskogen’s private forum, and you’re only allowed to post things that agree with him !

That is not true at all, the other guy is a fierce troll. And his arguments has no weight, a lot of the time, like he want to argue just for the sake of arguing. He really got me on my nerves yesterday.

[Cypr3ss_Deteis]

@Lord_Xiskogen

Just shut up, because your points doesn’t have enough data to disprove or give your own arguments more weight.

@Lord_Xiskogen

How can we know that drone fit Proteus are not used much?

Because it is a attractive PVE ship.

WTF, because it is attractive we know it is not used much… that’s just… wait, wait… Donald Trump, is that you?? You’re trolling the eve forums instead of twitter, right?

Best of luck ever getting a point across with communication skills like that.

@Scipio_Artelius I guess on the plus side you had data and an argument… which is more than can be said for the OP.

Edit: Probably also a good time to mention ships are not balanced around PVE (whether or not they’re attractive), they are balanced around PVP, for which the data provided is perfect.

Later,
Cypr3ss.

[Lord_Xiskogen]

@Cypr3ss_Deteis

Edit: Probably also a good time to mention ships are not balanced around PVE (whether or not they’re attractive), they are balanced around PVP, for which the data provided is perfect.

Nah, the data provided only show what dies.
If you want real data, you need to look at every kill, and see if the prot used heavy drones or something.
What dies most doesn’t really say anything about pvp, can be just as much pve prots getting caught as anything.

[Anderson_Geten]

I disagree with that.
What we want is data about usage, not loss.

For example, we may think of the volume of sales of the subs - but again, if drone sub sales are lower than other sub, it does not mean drone sub is worse, it may mean actually it’s much better at keep the ship alive so less need to be replaced. (actually the sales seem the same with drone like 20/day and hybrid 30/day)

So far I think we can only discuss about the use cases of the subs, and how they fit their use. People said the drone proteus is an ishtar that can go through gates easier because nullified. IMO this is a correct way to start a discussion.

[Lord_Xiskogen]

@Anderson_Geten

it may mean actually it’s much better at keep the ship alive so less need to be replaced.

Maybe, or I would say it is simply because people use it for pve, and is very risk averse with it, because something something pve.

@Anderson_Geten

IMO this is a correct way to start a discussion.

I agree.

[Val_en_Thielles]

edit: this is a reply to post #5, move along if you’re not post #5 (for whatever reason it doesn’t show the reply thing)

you might find another relevant bit here

and another relevant bit here

“omg did he solopwn all those ships by himself? must be such elite pvp skills and proteus op ship no buffs needed here”

ahem no
what those two images tell us is that proteus is a pretty good ship for killing unpiloted ships dropping from
dead citadels in whs, and those kills account for around 20% of proteus killmail output. here you can see another wh example.

what is more, is that the remaining top systems and locations point towards heavy highsec elite pvp usage and gatecamping (something something friction extension processor)- you know, not the highest quality content this game has to offer. altogether, those locations make up over 1000 of all killmails produced with a proteus, coming around to 40-50% of all proteus kills.

for comparison, here’s the case of legion

and in case this is not satisfactory enough

@Scipio_Artelius

Just ignore the data that doesn’t prove you right. It’s the modern way.

[Lord_Xiskogen]

The thing about slapping the popular data bulk is that you would have to look at each kill to see if the drone system was used. And in most cases you can’t differentiate, because both subsystems use hybrid guns.
But I’m sure CCP have actual numbers if they look into it, and they can judge if the drone subsystem needs a adjust. That’s basically the reason for my post.

[Val_en_Thielles]

I am just responding to the other guy mate, I didn’t make a point about drone subsystem or the topic at hand. Sorry if I ended up derailing the thread for a moment.