Election PvP for Non-Bloc Voting Interests

@Mike_Azariah @Steve_Ronuken @Stitch_Kaneland @Arsia_Elkin @DutchGunner @Jurius_Doctor @Rixx_Javix @teddy_Gbyc @Uriel_Paradisi_Anteovnuecci

Null absolutely dominates the CSM while making up a relatively small portion of the player base. Of course, CSM observers will frequently point out that this is because the null blocs vote trade with each other in order to game the STV voting system, and are also good at getting out the vote. While I do think this is true, I also assert that it is only part of the reason. The other part is that the rest of us are a bunch of idiots that make it easy for them to win. Instead of feeding them killmails, we feed them seats.

Only an idiot persists in using losing strategies and tactics in in-game PvP. So… why do we keep using losing strats and tactics when it comes to the CSM?

We don’t like the lack of representation on the CSM, and frequently complain about being collateral damage… and then proceed to use the same strats that result in the nullblocs securing about 80% of CSM seats every year. Maybe we should -and I know it sounds crazy, but hear me out- but maybe we should stop doing the thing that doesn’t work. [Cue the gasps, murmurs, and harrumphs]

Of course, that begs the question: what strats and tactics should we use? Well, I’m of the opinion that a good place to start is to try copying what has been working for the null blocs. Obviously, other spaces are a lot more fractured than sov null, which will make vote trading and voter mobilization efforts more difficult. However, together we have such a large number of players that we only need to successfully organize a small fraction of them in order to start securing more seats. And, hopefully, if we can secure a higher than average number of seats this year for non-bloc reps, that will further encourage people to get behind the effort for better representation.

Note: Obviously this is an older chart that doesn’t distinguish between omega and alpha accounts, but it’s the best I was able to find. And it does illustrate how much we outnumber the nullblocs. All of nullsec (including npc null and the small, unaffiliated alliances) comes in with a little less than 15% of the total population.

Vote Trading

Naturally, this isn’t going to work if every micro corp out there had to negotiate with every other one in order to secure a vote trade. However, if players could coalesce behind a dozen or so voting blocs with similar values and priorities, then trying to hammer out deals between those groups would certainly be feasible. For example, I seriously doubt that all of highsec is going to agree on a list of candidates. Buuuuuuuuut, I’m willing to bet that someone like @Aiko_Danuja could get the ganking community to rally behind her, and possibly even all highsec PvP’ers. So, if all of the major players in HS PvP could work out a list of candidates, they can now come to the bargaining table with their list and an estimate of how many votes they think that they can muster. So, the question is, are players capable and willing to organize themselves into a reasonable number of voting interests (i.e. low class wormholes, high class wormholes, role players, HS PvP’ers, HS carebears, FW, Pochven)?

Voter Mobilization

Obviously, everyone needs to encourage their guys and their friends to vote. However, one thing that will definitely improve election participation is giving your players a list of guys to vote for. Most people don’t want to watch 10 hours of CSM candidate interviews on twitch, or read some asshole’s 37 page manifesto on how he would fix Eve. So, I think a two prong approach is required here: 1) stress the importance of voting, and 2) make it as easy as possible for them to vote (give them a voting list, the link to vote, and at least a couple of reminders).

Every Vote Matters

Speaking of which, you guys do know how close these elections can get, right?

Election PvP

Naturally, most CSM candidates already view elections through a competitive lens, but I think it’s time for the rest of us to do the same. Why the ■■■■ do we keep pursuing the same losing strats? And why the ■■■■ have so many of us given up on a more representative CSM? Is it because real world elections have beaten the fight out of us, and made us feel like we are incapable of achieving meaningful change? …I can only speculate. What I do know however, is that we are not competing against billionaire political spending ,or legislators that rewrite laws and redraw district lines in order to maintain political power -we are competing against other players on a level playing field. I know some of the nullbloc players can seem larger than life, but they are regular assholes, just like you and me.

We can beat them. So, I guess the real question is, do we have the will and the brains to do so?

Aktuhaly, we shuld disband teh GSM

Well, I dispute the argument that the player base would be better off without the CSM, but it’s also not going to happen (well, barring a major incident, or string of incidents). People have been calling for and end to the organization for around 14 years now. So, I’m pretty sure that dog don’t hunt.


@Mark_Resurrectus @Phantomite @Maldavius @Loroseco_Kross @Torvald_Uruz @The_Oz @Ikarus_Cesaille @Pandora_Singularity @Insidious_Sainthood @Olmeca_Gold

I can only mention 10 people in a post. So, let’s spam some moar people hyar!

The key force that works for them is that they’re large groups and many of them mandate a certain ballot. This isn’t really possible in other parts of space to the same scale it’s used in null.

Non-bloc candidates that are successful are usually based around easily identified key themes: Mike - newbros, Steve - Indy & 3rd party tools, iBeast - Russian-language community, Torvald - Abyss runners & FW, Olmeca - cap-hunting/NPSI groups, etc.

I’d say one of the biggest issues is that certain groups will always split particular voter blocs. Some people will never vote for a Snuffed Out or Hard Knocks/Lazerhawks candidate on principle, so they end up splitting the voter blocs for their respective areas of space and types of gameplay.

There’s not a huge amount that can be done about that since it’s based on pretty deep-rooted emnity.

That’s what I try to do every CSM cycle, trying to get a coalesced focus from multiple smaller groups. This is especially difficult in WH space, which i’ve tried to work together with. Which has gone well mind you, but even then they still want a high class WH guy as their primary spot because they do have a better understanding of high class mechanics than I.

The issue with most high class guys, is that the big groups in WH space both butt heads and do the spider man meme pointing at each other saying they’re the worst and don’t want to be represented by the other group. Its like trying to tell Goons to vote for a TEST guy in their spot, its just unlikely to happen, even if the candidate is a good candidate. Having spoken with @Mark_Resurrectus before, he’s a great dude who really wants whats best for WH. But the other groups may go “you’re in that group we don’t like, you just want to buff evictions to kick us out” regardless of what he may say.

I fit in more as a neutral party, which is typically why i fall 2nd or 3rd on WH ballots, because they generally all agree that i have no stake in the race to evict anyone.

FW/LS is also difficult, but outside of the major groups like Snuff/SC (and a few others i’m forgetting), most of FW/LS is a bunch of very small groups/tribes. Even for solo/small gang I can guarantee there are small gang groups that dislike me because i’m not on board with nano meta, or have different ideas than them that also includes nerfing some of their playstyle for the health of the game. Or maybe my ideas don’t solve all the issues they have by itself in a vacuum. So you’ll run into the same fragmentation with small gang/LS/FW as you would in WH’s.

The better method is to try to be holistic and focus on the game at large. Making your campaign about completely shutting down someone else’s game play style or being aggressive about it may not win over those on the other side of the fence. Last year i’m sure i captured some smaller nullsec groups because i still agreed with them on some of their issues and wasn’t outright saying i think they should be punished for CCP’s past missteps. That doesn’t mean that i don’t think nullsec shouldn’t change, but more than i’m willing to work with them and not just shut them down.

Even my balance passes that have been implemented into the game are based on this. For example BLOPs rebalance and the Battleship plate/extender bonuses were both my ideas that were implemented. They didn’t benefit my completely solo playstyle, but the game at large through multiple playstyles.

So, while I agree with your statements, its not as easy as saying “hey guys, just vote for these small gang/balance guys and stop acting like a herd of cats”. Because not everyone likes those guys and there will always be some kind of difference of opinion.

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I mean I’d vote for Shipwreck.

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I remember reading these kind of post back when I still had my Cannibal Kane char.

Choosing somebody based on were the live will not work. Because the fact of the matter is, in EVE each change has a different impact in different areas of space.

It should not matter where the person on the CSM lives in EVE. What matters is that they take input from anybody no matter where they choose to reside. Understand that impact in its entirety and see what can be done. And lets be honest, most people that ask for change normally has their interest in mind. I lived in null, wh, low, and I have now lived in high for many year. I still learn new thing… :slight_smile: If I ask for a change now it will be based on my current play style.

I am sure there is many in CSM (or so I hope to believe) that when a change looked at, each area of space is considered. I based that only what I see from @Brisc_Rubal because he is at least the most visible CSM. And if somebody says… hey that change sucks for xyz, he will either justify why that is needed or says he will bring it up with CCP.


So that’s where the blops changes came from! I’ve been wondering why CCP would give the Sin some weak logi drone bonuses that are mutually exclusive with the drone damage role of the ship.

I liked the blops change in general, but am pretty disappointed with that rather useless Sin trait.

On topic of the CSM: I think it’s good if non-bloc CSM candidates get an equal chance by working together.

Mikes already stated he isnt running. While i dont live in wh, arsia made it on by someone dropping out id like to see her stay on.

When i talked to Rise about it I offered alternatives for the logi drone bonus to something else. Like warp scramble strength (similar to maulus navy) or plate mass bonus like the Eris. As i wasn’t really sold on the bonus myself (even the comments in that thread show that I wasn’t fully sold on it).

But CCP went with the logi drone bonus anyway vOv. The Sin still got buffs in the end, and is still a perfectly fine BLOPs, but yeah, the logi drone bonus maybe wasn’t the best choice.

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The CSM in a nutshell. You propose changes, you provide good reasons for the changes, CCP agrees to make changes, they do half of what you suggested and then do something else for the other half, people hate the other half and then complain that it’s your fault bad changes were made you because you asked for changes in the first place.


Sometimes it would be nice if CCP listened a little more. :yum:

Poor baby… D’ya need a tissue or a shoulder to cry on?

Oh, and I forgot to mention, you get guys like this who follow you around, get banned for talking ■■■■, and then make alts to keep doing it again, for God knows what reason. All because you had the audacity to run for CSM and actually talk to folks in the community. The guys who never post here don’t have to worry about these guys, which is largely why there’s like three of us who actually post on these forums.


Aaawww, you’re worried about me, baby? Don’t worry, I won’t hurtcha

Yeah, i’ve already experienced that a bit with the plate/extender role bonus.

“Your changes made marauders even stronger”

Well, my changes never included T2 battleships in the first place. That was a CCP addition. Though, its easy enough to point back to the original post to show them i never wanted those changes. Probably harder for CSM since they don’t really have a visible paper trail.

You say it yourself, “Understand that impact in its entirety”. For example, as much as Brisc does a good job of reaching out to parties in the wormhole community to advocate for them and try to prevent them being negatively impacted by changes, he’s not got the same degree of personal experience that many of the candidates who live in wormholes do. In the closed-door CSM meetings, he won’t be able to bring the same level of nuanced insight to help guide CCP in that area. Even going off and consulting with an expert isn’t the same as having all that knowledge at one’s fingertips.

It’s not his fault he’s not some kind of omniscient perfect being, but it does pose a wider issue when most of the CSM are engaged in similar playstyles. It can’t help but introduce unintended bias.

This is why candidates from different parts of space, or at least different playstyles to the large nullblocs are important.

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The hard part of getting non block players to organize synced voting ballots that would support each others is hard as the playground is so split up. During last elections there was some talks amongst the independent and non block candidates to form comms channels but things never took wind under the wings.

I did my rounds last year when i decided not to run and instead spend tons of time studying the candidates which i could not do when i ran myself. I also talked with some larger and some smaller independent candidates and communities and the message usually was that if they did not had an own candidate running the leadership didn’t care about CSM and those who did care didn’t either care to make even a ballot of their own. It felt like most of them had given up on CMS and let it be a null thing.

Anyway there are ofc also interest in voting on CSM amongst these communities which brings us the next problem: getting their members to vote on some players that is not affiliated with the said members directly. We looked at the voting numbers from our own community of around 3k ish active players and when i ran myself we i think we pushed around 1,4k votes but last year when our ballot had external players only we pushed few hundred votes on mike and fellows. Granted Mike got in with those so op success but the numbers clearly indicated to us that CSM for a lot of players looks like a dick waving contest (at least on the HS side).

And lastly finding information and voting for the candidates takes so much effort and time that most players simply cant be arsed to take the time to do the research. Those who want to support their own corp/community or whatever often follow the corp ballots. Like suggested over and over again getting voting also into the ingame client + added some rewards for voting such as an “i voted skin” or similar could add a lot more random votes besides the premade ballots to the table.

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How about a MEGA hat? Make Eve Great Again?

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