Stop being ignorant.
Ok, and?
Who cares. Orcas are deliberately meant to be a viable mining vessel. This is by design.
So itâs fine for people to use Orcas to mine, they have made a choice about what they value.
Posting screenshots like this does nothing to back up any of your claims, the data set is too small, you are clearly catching the same players each day in those screenshots so the results are going to come out similar each day of course, and it shows nothing about their behaviour.
So youâre position is that Orcas are meant to be used to solo mine? They are not designed as mining support vessels?
It doesnât matter how often i catch the same people doing the same thing. All that matters is the use of orcas vs barges and what that usage looks like.
If the same guy mines in an orca 10 days in a row, that still means heâs favouring the orca over barges for those 10 days.
Donât ask me for proof and then stick your head in the sand when I give you it.
Feel free to collect your own data.
This is your issue, you are assuming that because they can be used one way it negates the others. Aka false dichotomy.
Both can be true at once. If a vessel is able to mine viably while supporting a fleet operation clearly it can also mine solo.
You havenât given any proof of the claims you were making. All you have done is found a convenient system with Orcas. And sure, some people favour Orcas. This isnât an issue. If zero people were using Orcaâs that would be an issue. If zero people were using barges that would be an issue. As it is we have some using Orcas, some using Barges. This is not like pre tiericide when everyone used Hulks. (& no, finding a convenient system with no barges is not proof)
Me running out and finding a convenient system with no orcas also would be no proof. Because what we need are numbers only CCP has to show if there is or isnât any issue. Because we need to know how many people do afk Orcas, if any do that now that Trigs & FOBâs exist. And how much ore high sec Orcas pull in relative to high sec barges. Global stats, not local.
Itâs not a false dichotomy. You just donât understand what Iâm showing you.
If the orca is hardly used in the way that itâs intended (lets say only 2/14 times) and overwhelmingly used in another way, a way that is widely regarded as detrimental to the game experience, then Iâd argue it should be changed. And i know what we should change because history tells us it works.
Pick a 0.5 system then.
The convenience is that you are either unwilling or incapable of seeing whatâs infront of you.
You dismiss that orcas are used more for mining than barges. So i show you that not only are they used far more for solo mining than they are fleet support, but also used as much as all barges and exhumers combined. And faced with that youâre position suddenly changes to:
âTheyâre meant to solo mineâ.
First, nice twisting of my words.
Second, what position change, my position always has been
- They are meant to be able to mine.
- The suggestions placed in this thread are not going to decrease the use of Orcas, if anything the concord timer increase will increase the use of Orcas, because barges will be easier to gank.
We accept your denial of the problem.
Since you are a denier there is no need for you to participate in the conversation about solutions.
Iâm not twisting. Youâre either fine with what Iâm showing you or youâre not (or you really are in denial). Itâs not a false dichotomy, itâs a perfectly binary choice.
By saying there is no problem with what Iâm showing you, you are saying there is no problem with the majority (10/14 minimum) of Orcas solo mining rather than supporting fleets. You are fine that more orcas are used for mining than any barge or exhumer. Infact, twice as much as the most common barge/exhumer). You even go on to say itâs by design that they are doing this did you not?
Youâre saying they are designed to be able to mine such that 10/14 solo mine rather than support barges.
And Iâm not saying they shouldnât mine at all. But that we can cut back their mining yield such that they are not used twice as much as the most popular barge/exhumer or as much as all barges and exhumers combined. And that more than 2/14 Orcas are used for fleet support.
Holly â â â â . You found a system with more orcas, therefore the whole game only revolves around orcas.
You know what ? I found one system in HS without a titan, therefore there is no titan in the game.
What a stupid position.
No, they are meant to be able to mine. Period.
That they are used to mine, is not an issue.
your 10/14 is just complete garbage.
Feel free to collect your own data.
I think i may know a causal link for that.
Your are the one affirming something, you are the one who should provide the data.
You donât. You try, but you fail.
Thatâs because you make false claim about data that do not exist.
And you again missed the point.
Your 10/14 means NOTHING. You claim a general case from a very specific experience. Thatâs stupid.
So a gila is meant to combat npcâs and other players. If it is overwhelmingly popular at it compared to itâs competitors, we shouldnât nerf it?
What about if the gila starts doing the job of other classes with overwhelming popularity? Say more gilas are used for fast tackle than frigates?
âŚbut it CAN tackleâŚright? So it wouldnât be a problem if it was a more popular fast tackle than any frigateâŚwhat about as much as all frigates combined?
So you can tell me a causal link for why orcas would be more popular than barges in Jufvitte?
Or you know, option C. Itâs not a binary choice, I believe you are showing a false picture based on your own biases and want to see some real statistics.
And even if your picture is correct, your solution is incorrect.
So no, itâs not a binary choice, it never is, and your attempt to paint it as one is deliberately misleading.
Your Gila example is a perfect example for false analogies. The Gila was ânerfedâ because it was about 95% of all Abyss running. And a comparison to your desired Concord timer change would be âThe Gila is 95% of all Abyss running, so weâll raise the DPS of all Abyss sitesâ. Which⌠would have made the Gila even more popular.
It couldnât be anything to do with Gankers not liking to target Orcas now could it. The very same Gankers who have spent years saying âfly ships with tanksââŚ
Canât imagine how that could have an impact on if people fly the highest tank miner or not.
The simple fact of the matter is that no one thing causes people as a group to fly a ship, all the bits add up.
However, you still havenât established an issue to people flying Orcas. You have whined about âAFKâ but an Orca doesnât have to be flown afk, and have done nothing to establish that AFK flying of Orcas is commonplace. And if they arenât AFK, then you have also failed to establish an issue, since they are giving up other things to fly an Orca.
P.S. Consider maybe that the issue is Barges being bad, not Orcas being good. Their fittings suck.
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If you think Iâm fudging numbers you can easily prove it by going to Jufvitte yourself.
Or go around d-scanning 0.5 systems yourself.
So the only reason anything was nerfed was because it was 95% of abyss running?
Do you wonder why Domi drone bonus was nerfed? Or the gila and worm nerf BEFORE abyss space was a thing? Or heavy missiles?
Erm no, it would be to remove a low slot to reduce the gilas dps, and then nerf its drone hp bonus to make it more susceptible to losing dronesâŚoh look.
Thatâs why we should nerf the Orca drone yield bonus.
Iâm sure it doesnât hurt. However, ccp have told us that miners prefer afk-ability over tank.
The tank is just a bonus. If you wanna nerf that to Iâm generally supportive.
Well you did.
And ccp established that tank is less important than afk-ability. And anyone at their keyboard can use a skiff/proc for tank or a cov/hulk for yield.
The primary reason to fly an orca (not as fleet support) is afk-ability. Anyone using Orcas as their main mining vessel (especially ones perma running local shield tanks) is most likely not in active control.
Yes, you whined about AFKing Orcas, and have done nothing to show that they actually are being AFKed.
You have done nothing to show they actually are unbalanced. So some people prefer them, who cares?
Your best attempt at anything has barely shown 50% of Orcas in one particular system. That isnât enough cause for any nerfs, not without actually having global stats backing that showing that they are bringing in a disproportionate amount of Ore as well.
Because Global statistics backed it up, not one person Dscanning and whining?
Man, you really donât read do you, when did I ever say âNerf the Orca tankâ.
You just continue to come out with false statements, and keep running around in circles with your argument.
In general, they are the most preferred mining ship. Even more so than specially designed mining ships.
Yeah. Itâs a problem when a specialist is less successful than a support vessel in itâs own field.
Then why did you ask for proof?
If you knew you were just going to be dismissive of any data that didnât tell you what you want to hear, why ask at all?
You asked. I answered mate.
Beggars canât be choosers. CCP may never release such data.
Given the problem is the orcas popularity for mining over mining barges.
You think that popularity is because of their tankâŚso one thing we can do is nerf the tank.
See CCPs statement from the Dev blog.
They are mining vessels. They are also Command boosting Vessels.
Your issue is that you are trying to say they can only be one, not both.
And no, nerfing the tank is not the way forward. thatâs just handing the keys to the gankers. Because you would have to nerf the tank to below the Proc to make a difference there as to which mining ship has the best tank.
How about you actually come up with one main complaint you have. Rather than running around in circles complaining.
Is it that orcas are sort of popular. Is it that you can afk in them (if you donât care about yield). Is it that they mine too Mich. Whatâs your actual main complaint here.
No.
My issue is that they are more successful than specialist mining vessels.
Quote me where i said they should have their mining ability completely removed. Or quote me where ccp said they wanted to see Orcas used more than any barge for mining.
I disagree. In fact I donât think the tank is a problem because I donât think orcas are used for their tank. You do.
My problem is solved with a yield nerf alone.
Itâs that they are more popular for mining than specialist mining barges. This is most likely because of their afk-ability (and afk mining is something to be discouraged in general).
The answer to this problem is to nerf the yield. We know from history that there is a yield threshold that is undesirable to afk miners.
Your sentence is missing words. More successful means what ?
If macks had the same tank, which one would you use ?
Seriously your post makes no sense at all.
citation needed.
More popular/frequent.
The expectation is that there would be more specialist mining vessels than support vessels.
And/or that support vessels would typically be used for support, and not overwhelmingly as mining vessels alone.
If macks had the same tank as an orca, i still think the orca would be more popular because of longer afk-ability.
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