You’re correct on the last bit very much, but stating that Hilmar said that the game as a whole needs to be easier is simply not true. He did not say nor imply it, he was referring to the NPE.
He DID say certain things need better explaining, but that’s not “dumbing down”.
CCP Hellmar was also referring to the game as whole too, especially about how in 2003 there were only 30 ships in-game and very few content choices available so having the game be complex was ok compared to now which has over 300 ships and a lot more content choices available.
He also said that today’s gamers don’t want to deal with a lot of complexity.
I know you peeps don’t like the OP but stop making up stuff just to contradict everything he says.
Tell me, how is showing the location of exploration sites in the Agency not Dumbing Down The Game? There’s a lot of other changes that have been done like that as well.
Can you give us some concrere examples of what you mean. I think there is a misunderstanding here.
The way I understand it is that they try to reduce the complexity of accessibility, which means confusing menus, unintuitive mechanics (timers are visible now, better warnings), things along those lines.
I don’t think they mean the complexity of the game as in simplifying the production process of supers by getting rid of capital components etc., which is what this Naari guy seems to suggest.
Oh yes, it’s been a made a lot easier over the years. Some things today I call Fisher Price game mechanics.
Yet, as said earlier, I see and feel that CCP has done a 180. It’s a different tone now, a different goal.
Concrete examples? Come on man, you’ve been playing this game long enough to know what I’m talking about…
Reducing the complexity of accessibility for this game would actually consist of having a more intuitive NPE that fully explains the basic fundamental game mechanics as well as provide easier access to vital information when needed, such as with an in-game wiki.
Over the years and recently even more so, CCP has made a lot of changes to make this game easier and less complex, such as reduction of skill requirements, preset Overview Tabs, exploration sites showing on-screen after entering a system, site locations listed in the Agency, preset probe formations, reduction of materials for item production, removal of Tech 1 meta levels, stats for same type modules made more generic, etc, etc, the list goes on…
Why yes… Clicking 8 times on a probe launcher and then dragging boxes around was the definition of difficulty…
Why no it wasn’t. That wasn’t complexity. That was bad ui.
Most of what you listed has been ui changes. also meta levels were always a false choice, not real complexity and the tiericide items actually are more complex because there isn’t one to rule them all always.
So… your own examples there sure don’t show a dumbing down of the game. It’s just a convenient narrative for you to whine about
Any designer knows that Complexity is bad, and also ccp said recently in interviews they are actively trying and looking for ways to remove complexity from the game.
This is definitive proof that you peddling this “complexity is good” nonsense is not good.
Complexity will never be good in a game, If done correctly by intelligent design, it will never be intentionally added to a game. It should come in subtle ways, naturally.
The issue is people think that complexity is a good thing, because either 1) they knew they can abuse it over others that do not have time, desire or ability, or 2) because it grants options.
In the case of 2, it can be said that it is not a valid argument, as a better, more balance and universally accepted form of choice, namely, depth can be applied.
In some natural way complexity will always exist in a game, intended to be there or not, its a sort of by-product to lack of foresight.
Complexity has a tendency to find its way in games, some times much more then desired. For example, as we add more characters to maps in league of legends, we see that the meta-complexity increases with each new character. Some superior studio’s, like blizzard, have found out that there are alternatives to this. blizzard counters this complexity growth by slowing it down. how? by adding more maps to the que, to enable more “freshness” to the game, but not increase it’s complexity. So they end up reaping the rewards of riot, but with out the negative draw backs , at least in some degree, of riot.
lol, what a load of bullsh*t, I never had any problems understanding how to control the various aspects of the game but it seems you sure did. Guess it was too complex for you to ‘Save’ a custom probe formation let along go out and actually do the act of exploration.
As for Module Tiericide, the main reason that was done was to remove complexity, they were intentionally made more generic for easy fitting choice between Powergrid or CPU.
Anyway despite what you say, it still doesn’t change the fact that a lot of stuff in the game has been made easier / dumbed down to be less complex.
This does not effect complexity levels, at least not directly.
This are largely quality of life revisions
Economic related changes likely
I honestly feel like the faction ammo should be limited to faction weapons (and the faction weapons limited to using faction ammo). Faction ammo in my opinion largely invalidates tech two training.
If you want to talk about removing a lot of complexity of the weapon systems, the best way to do this is to simply have 2 types of weapons, and 2 tiers of those types per a weapon (as able to be applied).
For example, Pulse Beam I, Pulse Beam II, and Beam I, and Beam II.
All this ano… What ever is nonsensical to me, and i think it both invalidates faction items, and tech 2 progression.
I’d much rather that faction stuff be limited in its own section, this will give it more identity. It’d be especially interesting if this some how interacted with Pirating, Anti-Pirating, and Faction War ( i kind of feel like faction ships should be used for these purposes exclusively ). I’d also really like it if alliances could create their own ships, with selected bonus’s, etc.
I think its merited to bring to this conversation the developer related definitions of complexity and depth, and how they effect the game.
When it comes to game design, we want players to have the ability to express themselves, to find and try new things, and to be “intellectually stimulated”. This leaves us with two options to accomplish this, complexity, and depth.
Depth is best explained as
*A choice that could be instantly understood upon reading it in its entirety *
Complexity is best explain as
“A choice which has ambiguous levels to it, often hiding or concealing some alternative way to interact with its offered choice”.
Examples of this are
Depth: “You gain 10% more attack power”
Complexity: “You gain 10% more attack power for every 10 Agility”
The end result is someone will find a way to stack agility, because often in mmo’s agility as an attribute itself will provide some form of passive benefit. For example, in world of warcraft some classes will obtain bonus armor (damage reduction) where others may obtain more critical (wrecking hit) chance.
The result of this is something like
depth: 10% more attack power
Complexity : 10% more attack power, and another 15% damage reduction || 10% more attack power, and another 15% chance to critically strike.
Obviously you can see how potentially game breaking this is, especially if the effects can stack up significantly.
Many of those advocating for complexity in eve think this is a good thing. The problem is that the majority of people today do not have the time, ability, or desire to find ways to break the game in this manner.
The result of this is those players being left at a significantly weaker position, always always game breaking to the point of causing the group at a disadvantage to quit. I’d imagine some potion of the people that left eve, left because of this reason, namely, the inability, ineligibility, or unwillingness to commit to finding them and taking advantage.
Here’s how it typically goes:
For years NullSec whined about HiSec, calling for nerfs, reduction in safety. They said “HTFU” and carebears threatened “PCU, health of the game”.
Now NullSec is getting some nerfs and HiSec is gloating and saying HTFU, and Nullbears are threatening “PCU, health of the game”.
Everyone always says “HTFU, bla bla bla” when some gameplay they don’t participate in gets a change, but when something they do changes it’s WAAA WAAA, PCU, HEALTH OF THE GAME, I’M UNSUBBING, THIS WILL KILL AN ENTIRE PLAYSTYLE.
FTFY.
Considering your OP… It seems you are really bad at using your own advice.
In agreement with Maekchu and company, you came here trying to provide an avenue for more enlightened exchanges and instead devolved into GRRR GOONS Drivel:
pretended that there is some grandiose conspiracy to suppress this same Anti-Goon rhetoric among the members of community enforcement:
“Iv noticed there is a select few individuals that abuse all forms of forum moderation in order to cover up any other forum of differential opinion. I have even witness some of the moderation staff behaving in this manner.”
(For whatever reason that one won’t quote properly)
And in addition after claiming you were here to support “The common man” in essence turned around and said:
TLDR/
Your here complaining about the forums, advocating for change, while you just pour it on the sludge pile full pressure.
There is a reason why the population calls goons “goon scum”.
If you want to assign “anti-goon rhetoric” to me, I gladly accept it. Goons are scum, and like i said, if ccp was half the company any other company was, they’d disband you with out thinking twice about it.
I dont need to gain the opinion of someone to know how to change eve to improve their gameplay. Its not rocket science here. Nerf the abuse, and people benefit.
I know you are here with your “pro-goon rhetoric” and how goons are the best thing for this game, but we all know you secretly are trying to kill it, which was your slogin for years. The only reason you dont spout that stupidity anymore is because ccp told you they’d disband you if you said it again.
Which is why your now here to “we are here to ruin your game” instead of " we are here to kill eve", but that does not change the fact that we all know who “your” is in this, namely, ccp.
You have demonstrated through your years of abuse of the playerbase, the mechanics, the servers, and the over all spirit of the game your intention. Lay on your propaganda, i’ll be there to expose it for what it is. Your best option is to walk away, but know that will do nothing but result in your downfall.
Like i said, Your days of terrorizing this game is longer over.
You do Realize I’m Proviblock Right? Not a Goon around to be seen most days. For all the intel you apparently gather on goons you seem to have a massive blind spot for everyone else.
And it’s hardly pro or anti goon propaganda its just business as usual, these threads are a dime a dozen ive seen hundreds since i started playing 7 years ago. Always ends the same way, someone foaming at the mouth and someone posting a Psuedo-Call-To-Arms in another forum
And thats a GrrGoons Bingo by the way
Would be great if you actually provided some credible references to argue your point. Maybe then people would actually argue with your instead of calling you a troll.
I mean, last time I asked you about providing relevant references, you gave me a 102 vote forum poll post as your source to prove that the global playerbase prefers PvE over PvP.
You ever found a better reference to that?
Your a goon, on an alt. Your not fooling anyone here.
Well I’ll Be, i must have fooled myself. Well if you say so I guess you seem to be omnipotent after all.
Either way enjoy your delusions, and good luck with your war on goons, CCP, and pretty much everyone who disagrees with you.
Benefit like you did when you were scamming newbies in your high sec mining corp? Take your moral high horse about forum honor and shove it up your hull. You obviously need validation from all us “plebs” or else you wouldn’t come here every day with your garbage QQ threads. Why are you even playing Eve when you could be playing a “superior” blizzard game?
Yes I completely agree. But I think CCP wants to actually improve the NPE and they tried, they just get it horribly wrong all the time. I don’t think that is intentional though, I think they are just really bad at it.
Yes OK, they made some things less complex indeed. But I would still say that the big majority of this changes are in the category of accessibility. I would count skill requirements to this as well.
That the agency shows the signatures is an absolute abomination and I have no idea what they are thinking… I have not seen a single serious person who was in favor of this. This was clearly coming from people in the company who had no idea about the part of the game they where changing. And I have no idea why they didn’t react to the huge backlash that this change got… CCP can be extremely boneheaded and stupid at times.