I’m tired of repeating myself, so:
(And by the way: Samira agreed and apologized.)
I’m tired of repeating myself, so:
(And by the way: Samira agreed and apologized.)
I mean, the issue isn’t the ‘pretty much everywhere else that isn’t Amarr’. It’s the ‘all the faithful in the Republic’. But I’m going to assume that your saying “a leadership figure” means you were saying he was just one of many, as that was the word I missed on my first read through.
That’s nice. It doesn’t change anything. I don’t care how someone identifies or what fiddly bits they’ve got. I’m going to treat them as a person. And ‘they/them’ is a perfectly legitimate gender-nonspecific pronoun to use for people. I’m not being dehumanizing if I say someone is a ‘layperson’ to a field. I’m not being dehumanizing if I call someone a ‘thespian’ rather than ‘actor’ or ‘actress’. Gender-nonspecific terms are perfectly applicable regardless of someone’s gender.
Trying to dictate how someone speaks and what words they can use? That’s kinda manipulative, though. Especially when it’s pretty clear nobody was trying to disrespect you, they (OMG THERE IT IS AGAIN! TEH HORROR, THE HORROR!!!) were just being non-specific.
So? I know this is gonna come as a shock, but I’m not Samira, and Samira apologizing doesn’t in any way prohibit me from calling you out on the fact that that thing you claim you didn’t say? You said it.
So you are totally fine with Matari swearing to betray the Tribes when ordered to by a hostile Empire. Good to know.
The CEP did! Also, coincidentally, not you. I have attached a handy visual aid to remind you and others, in case they forgot. I hope this helps! Here’s my source.
Are you hallucinating? It says not something he did claim. It’s just your brainfart. If you says CEP did, point EXACTLY where they said it. Show. The. Damn. Quote.
Show the word! WHERE is it, because I don’t see in your so-called “source” where CEP calls them ENEMIES.
Don’t bother me with your brainfarts.
Just to clarify: are you implying terrorists aren’t enemies of the State?
Stupid question. Galletean terrorists and Minmatar terrorists (like their infamous freedom fighters) are clearly enemies of the State. Even if they’re not professional fighters, they are still combatants for opposing sides.
The Chief Executive Panel has released a statement calling Tibus Heth “the leader of a terrorist insurgency against the Caldari State” and has removed him from the role of State Executor.
… Exercising their powers under corporate law, the board has declared Tibus Heth an outlaw in Kaalakiota territories and vacated the position of CEO.
Kaalakiota Corporation has been granted a State-wide corporate warrant by the Caldari Business Tribunal for Tibus Heth’s arrest on charges of malfeasance, misappropriation and embezzlement. The Chief Executive Panel has similarly announced that Heth is wanted under Caldari basic law for the murder of Admiral Visera Yanala, terrorism, and political extremism stemming from his takeover of the Caldari Constructions Warehouse in Haatomo.
Heth is wanted by the Kaalakiota Corporation for the theft of vessels he used to conduct his takeover of the Caldari Constructions station in Haatomo, as well as embezzlement of corporate resources used to fund the Caldari Providence Directorate over the course of several years.
The Chief Executive Panel has announced that it prefers Heth to be returned alive for a proper trial before the Caldari Business Tribunal, but has acknowledged that “capturing the renegade alive may not be possible.”
A force of Provists and Templis Dragonaurs have seized control of the Caldari Constructions Warehouse around Haatamo VII – Moon 3. It has been confirmed that Tibus Heth is leading the force.
The Caldari Navy and security forces belonging to the megacorporations blew open the sealed off sections of the Caldari Constructions station around Haatomo VII’s third moon with explosive charges, stormed the entrenched Caldari Providence Directorate and Templis Dragonaurs forces, and brought an end to the eight day siege that has gripped New Eden.
The Navy, which had held off on attacking the station due to the presence of Caldari Constructions workers who were trapped in the sealed areas, made the decision to storm the building after receiving “actionable intelligence that indicated the lives of the hostages and many others were in greater danger by failing to act.” The Navy has refused to release what this intelligence was, citing a continued threat to the State by terrorist cells.
The CEP has also reaffirmed the status of the Templis Dragonaurs as terrorists. Though they were never officially removed from the State’s list of terrorist organizations, they maintained a close affiliation with the Provists and were increasingly being used in official capacities by the Heth regime.
… Caldari State authorities continue to treat Heth as a live fugitive.
If occupying a Caldari station, being denounced as outlaws and terrorists, and literally engaging in armed rebellion against the Caldari State such that the Navy sends boarding parties to capture or kill you isn’t enough to be considered an ‘enemy’ of the State and a traitor, then let me know, because I’ll be glad to let PIE and Amarr know that they can return my status to me, because apparently there’s nothing wrong with conducting terrorism and rebellion against legitimate authorities.
Are you really going to make this about the exact words, Kim? “Yes they said he was declared a terrorist, outlaw, renegade, fugitive, embezzler of corporate funds, and murderer of Navy officers, and he illegally occupied a Caldari station and took Caldari citizens hostage and he was fired on by the Caldari Navy, but he’s not a traitor or enemy of the State.”? I mean, you’ve never been one to shy away from calling other people traitors for doing less than Heth and the Templis Dragonaurs did, without anyone superior to you charging them explicitly of treason first. So why now?
It hurts to find out people you thought were heroes have betrayed – or been betrayed by – the things you believe in, Kim. I know this very well. But you can’t run from reality. So, what is it? Either Heth was a traitor and you put your faith in the wrong man, or the CEP and the megacorporate CEOs are traitors for betraying him and you are therefore being loyal to a government of traitors. Afterall, by your own words, “Attacking loyal soldiers of the State is attacking the State.” Heth did this, or, the Caldari Navy did. One of them did. Which side were the loyal soldiers, and which were the traitors? One side had to be each. It’s up to you to decide which.
If they claimed exact word, I will demand them to bring where they heard it.
Okay, let me get into a bit deeper details.
Being called a terrorist when you’re clearly not (for example, like Heth) - it is insult, and it’s pity our higher circles descended to that. But yet, it’s a bit shallow insult. Technically, it’s the same as calling him an amateur or guerilla, blaming in lack of professionalism.
Calling someone a traitor, counterwise, is a grave insult. It’s the worst name you can get in the State and worst crime you can commit. Tossing names like that without evidences can get you jailed for slander. Wearing such name when it was proven true means being the lowest dirt in the State.
If a relatively offensive State citizen would meet a terrorist, they would giggle in their face. If they would meet a traitor - they would spit in their face.
Choice of words DO matter.
So attacking loyal soldiers of the State, and thus attacking the State, is not enough for someone to be labeled a traitor in your eyes? Because the evidence against him is high. I mean, he’s been charged guilty of many crimes, including the theft of Caldari ships and the illegal occupation of a Caldari station, and staged an insurgency against the State. Is this not enough to be considered a traitor in your eyes?
When did HE attack loyal soldiers of the State??
His ships. He was the Executor.
His station. He was the CEO.
Which exact insurgency?
Well, either he did, or the Navy did. There was a standoff at Haatomo station. It ended in blood. Heth’s forces refused to back down, and were holding Caldari citizens as hostages (and escaping workers claimed that Heth’s forces had attacked them when they refused to be press ganged into service). The Navy have claimed they had intelligence that lead them to believe Heth’s forces would kill the hostages, so the Navy stormed Heth’s forces, with boarding parties, and people were killed. If you consider Heth, the Provists, and Templis Dragonaurs loyal soldiers of the State, then the Navy attacked loyal soldiers of the State. If you consider the Navy loyal soldiers of the State, then Heth was staging a “terrorist insurgency against the Caldari State” (as the CEP called it) and taking Caldari citizens hostage, and he refused to surrender even when ordered to, which resulted in deaths at least among his own Provist and Templis forces when the Navy boarding parties stormed his position. (I am unaware of how many, if any, casualties there were among the Caldari Navy forces, so I will not make a claim to that.)
Oh, and he is charged of murdering Admiral Visera Yanala, by the Chief Executive Panel.
He is also charged, specifically, of malfeasance, by the Caldari Business Tribunal. The definition of malfeasance is “willful and intentional action that injures a party.”
And you know, since he was charged by the Caldari Business Tribunal with terrorism as well, and this is the word we keep using, let’s define it while we’re at it. Terrorism is defined as, 'the use of violence or of the threat of violence in the pursuit of political, religious, ideological or social objectives." Specifically, Heth was charged with terrorism ‘against’ the Caldari State, which means he was charged with using violence or the threat of violence against the Caldari State in the pursuit of his objectives.
All of the sources for these are already given in my previous post.
His occupation of Haatamo station with Provist and Templis Dragonaurs. And unlike the traitor comments, that is, word for word, what the Chief Executive Panel called it, in official documentation. As said, the quotes and sources are all already provided in my post above, but I’ll relink this one specifically.
The Chief Executive Panel has released a statement calling Tibus Heth “ the leader of a terrorist insurgency against the Caldari State ” and has removed him from the role of State Executor. … The seven CEOs unanimously voted against Heth.
and to confirm that the insurgency was the occupation, a second quote that I didn’t include above. This is, again, the CEP’s own words.
The Chief Executive Panel has denounced the occupation, saying, “Tibus Heth is acting without the authorization of the Chief Executive Panel and any military action against Caldari Prime is completely unsanctioned. This is being treated as an act of terrorism by the constituent corporations of the Caldari State.”
The CEP, Kaalakiota, Caldari Constructions, and the Caldari Navy didn’t seem to think so. The Caldari Business Tribunal and Kaalakiota charged him of theft (specific word in their ruling was misappropriation, which is defined as ‘the intentional and illegal use of property or funds’). He was also charged with embezzlement, which is defined as ‘theft or misappropriation of funds placed in one’s trust or belonging to one’s employer’.
Do you consider all of those State organizations the enemy, then? Honest question.
Open your profile, go to ‘Preferences > Notifications > Users’.
4 months at a shot. It’ll make it easier for some folks to deal with me, too, I’m sure.
Containing an insubordination by violence is not the same as containing citizens as hostages. Should I maybe claim that the Empire holds slaves as hostages? Or the Republic holds former slaves as hostages?
The Navy was misled since there was no information coming from the Executor himself to the CEP or directly to the Navy, they had orders coming without Executor’s approval or objection and they were used as a political tool to remove the Executor from the position using lack of the communication.
Which is an actual ■■■■■■■■. Adm. Yanala should have been court-martialed and probably could have been discharged from the service but spared of actual sentence since her actions saved millions. Instead of that she has chonen a honorable suicide like a real Caldari. Tibus Heth offered her a greatest honor, charging him with murder is against everything Caldari believe.
But not sentenced him - most likely that charge is just empty as others.
Again, that charge is just ridiculous. You can blame in terrorism, but there’s no sentence for terrorism. You can sentence for certain violence if you prove it did happen. Terror is just a motive for that violence and you can’t sentence anyone for their motives. You can only shame them for that.
Maybe Black Eagles would sentence for motives, but I don’t think any civilized court would judge you for the motives. They will judge you for the crime itself.
Again, Haatomo station was a station of Caldari Constructions which he was CEO of. Just think about it. If you “sieze” your own ship, for example, would it be considered as an “insurgency” against the Empire?
These claims were made only to remove him from the power. Quite likely he would win against them in CBT with ease - yet his position would be lost anyway, since he lost time for political movement to hold it. When he would aleviate charges against him, CPD would be already disbanded and there would be no place for Executor.
He just wasn’t ready to play “big” games. Our CEOs are pro at that, that’s their merit.
That was the power struggle, they won.
They are our leaders now, and I have to serve them and fight for them.
And I will give my life to protect them.
Does this answer satisfy you?
Thank you for sharing your perspective. I have nothing else to add.
Moving this here so it doesn’t clutter the other thread…
Of course she’s not. That would mean Heth was committing treason in the scenario Samira outlined.
Ishukone has business interests in the Gallente, it only makes sense they would offer support. I’m just saying calling it treason to reallocate resources for recovery (especially in this case, in which a monastery was hit) is a bit much. I clearly misworded my initial argument and for that I apologize
They were siding not just with Gallente - but with Federal Military forces, namely FDU organization Quantum Cats Syndicate. Whatever reason they had doesn’t matter. The treason remains treason. They sided with enemy, they started declaring wars on Caldari military organizations. What else would you need to call them traitors?
Ms. Kim, you have historically emphasized your status as a Provist, I can think of no way anyone could be so blinded with hatred that you would take an act of aid and turn it into a box on which you could rant about ‘treason’ and how I-RED are traitors. Remind me where you stand on the dissolving of the state under Heth? Your position as a state loyalist is questionable given your blindness toward what the state is and once was.
I’d love to discuss this privately and under more reasonable terms but I think my lexicon would be reduced to simply replying with variations of “What?” and “Explain your thought process.”
If you need a reminder I’d like to point to your incessant incrimination of I-RED for things that you want to believe. Such as their siding with Q-CATS and establishing a foothold in Blackrise being a front for as you love to say, treason against the state by engaging in caldari factions.
Am I to believe that at no point in your history you’ve engaged against Caldari? And before you say “They were traitors!” imagine for a second that we were to apply your reasons against you for those engagements. If you attacked Caldari, you are in fact, a traitor
Excuse me, what a pile of dumb nonsense is that? I never had honor to be a Provist.
How about looking into mirror? How blinded one shall be to call me a Provist? Here, someone for you to think about.
Committing an act of treason one becomes a traitor, is it news for you?
Reasons are irrelevant.
That it was a sad mistake.
If you truly believe in that - then it’s you who is freakingly blind here. If you not - then you’re just another gallentean bootlicker, who tears his shirt apart, loudmouthing State officers in good standing.
Now tell me, who you are?
I am Caldari. I believe facts and what I see. There are documented fact of siding with Federal militia. There are documented fact of declaring war on loyal and honorable Caldari militia. What else do you want? I belive in what I see. And what do you believe in?
There are many spies and traitors in the State, unfortunately. You have to know what you are standing for. When you stand for the State and then being wardecced for example, by some I-RED, it means they’re traitors. And if you need to attack anyone from the State - it’s only for their treason. How to know whom to attack then? - The answer is pretty simple: those, who attack State or attack the State by words.
Would I be a traitor for attacking I-RED after they wardecced us? Definitely no. They weren’t even in State military, just a neutral organization, pretending to be Caldari while trespassing in the warzone and attacking State military forces.
Would I be a traitor for attacking a State protectorate vessel of a pilot like “Warptosujarento” or something like that, who is known to be gallente spy? Definitely not.
Would I be a traitor for attacking a State protectorate vessel of a pilot, who by other words or actions attacked me first or the State? Definitely not.
So, what’s your point?