Photon UI - Now in Beta (Opt-Out)

I’m only 1 day in Photon and already fed up from pasting and posting things to the wrong chat tabs because it is impossible to see which tab is active since chat tabs are never focused when you do things in space. This gray-out-feature of inactive windows is such a frustrating experience that offers no positive aspects in return. Worse still, the active window is not even easily recognizable either because the effect is so minute.

The old UI does a much, much better job at telling me what is active and what is not active in my client.

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I would be so embarrassed to be associated with this “feature” in any way. Can you not see how bad it is? The blur is so painful. I just want to know what the UI development team is smoking? Thanks!

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No it doesn’t. It removes functionality in some windows without making the use of space as efficient as the old UI managed with full functionality being accessible. That’s the exact opposite of being good on small screens. It’s objectively worse on small screens in every way than just reverting to the old UI. And non-compact is equal in functionality but even worse than photon compact mode in its wasting of space.

As long as every time there’s an update which re-enables photon, they continue to give us an option to disable it again, I’ll keep playing. As long as photon continues improving with the opt-out remaining present, I’ll continue hoping that it will reach a point of acceptable functionality before they remove the old UI. As long as it’s not ready for launch, I’ll keep finding exuses to put off paying for omega. And as long as it keeps getting pushed live when it’s not ready for that, I’ll keep giving negative feedback pointing out that they need to clean the mess up before trying to show off how clean it is when it’s still a mess.

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In this day and age most people no longer take pride in their craft nor do their best to produce quality results, instead they just do the least amount of efforts to produce some pretend results to can claim they did their job and grab their payment no matter how bad the buyer / user of said product will suffer as a consequence.

Back in the days if you made a bad product people didn’t buy it and you had to find another job or starve to death so people did their best to earn their pay even if they haven’t cared for producing quality, but often they did care to begin with and were masters of their craft, which was an earned title in their case and was well deserved.

Maybe we should get back to the old ways. :thinking:

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if someone knew i was stuck in space i would have been attacked and destroyed and my cargo lost.

I suppose its a feature for gankers.

You can tell this UI was developed by a kid right out of school. Proton UI lacks true knowledge of 20 or 30 years of tested results and knowing what will fly and what wont. Young programmers today are punks, they jump on google and grab code off github and claim they programmed it themselves, SO they don’t even consider all the spacing and the synergy with other things in the game and end up breaking things by cramming in code from someone who actually knows what they are doing.

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Speaking of which I highly doubt anyone who designed let alone approved this ever played EVE themselves and surely did not consult with anyone who did or simply ignored the feedback, just like they do with player feedback on a regular basis.

Programmers like that will just ignore us. I personally would toil day to day if i got this kind of feedback on a project i was working on.

can you get pls get rid of this highlighting of everything my mouse touches, it is no bueno. makes things look less sharp and the areas where the colorscheme highlights ( window borders and the chat cursor for example) look fuzzy/blurry.
at least tone it down a bit.

also when i chose a color scheme ( the only one that doesnt drive me insane atm, due to highlighting, is the carbon one) can the color scheme pls apply to my complete UI and not only the things i highlight with my mouse. becasue that weird default grey we have now in photon…is not good. when i use carbon, the highlighted windows i have clicked on, look like i want my whole Ui to look and not only the window im clicking on.
thx.

I see that CCP has reset the UI “opt out” option, and made me have to opt out again and restart the client.

and yet NONE OF THE IMPORTANT, UNDERLYING KEY ISSUES THAT HAVE BEEN BROUGHT UP WERE ADDRESSED.

same issues as before:
–with the font size the same as the classic UI: less text shown within the same space.
–stupid amounts of padding on boarders and separations between UI elements in the same window
–transparency over-done, and click zones for boxes even smaller and more difficult to click for moving and resizing windows. Makes it harder to consistently read text with different backgrounds.
–additional latency in opening windows/screens (industry, settings, etc.)
–stupid macOS inspirited centering of UI boxes, and stupidly inconsistent within the rest of the UI. Seriously, what the hell. Your UX/UI snowflakes need to learn some damn human systems interface BASICS. the human factors elements are a notable downgrade.

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Please revert the changes in the drone window. The bars are way too thin, it much harder to see if a drones gets damage than before without looking actively on it.
image
There is also more than enough space for thicker bars

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i opt-out of proton UI because:
Way to much wasted space for padding, this isn’t a mobile game, it doesn’t need to be compatible with mobile/tablet devices, there’s a reason most (sane) people still use old.reddit.

A lot of the compact modes in windows straight up hide information that would otherwise mimic the old style of UI, but with appropriate padding, i like the comprise with the compact modes for the windows, however i would rather just see a straight up option in the settings to enable a complete compact mode, mimicking the spacing efficiency of the old UI.

I tried playing with the new proton UI on live servers for 2 weeks doing regular activities like fleets, my opinions did not change at the end.

If im forced to use the new proton UI without being able to opt-out, im probably not gonna re-up my subscription. Its simply not fun to play the game having to fight the UI.

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  1. When one makes a new bookmark for a specific public or personal bookmark folder, it would be very welcome to have back the visual hint of what is a subfolder and what is not - the usual indent in a directory tree. Reason: similar names in public alliance folder trees and in personal folder tree are a thing.
  2. the probe scan window now has tiny colorless icons, instead of buttons, and in a different place than they have been in the last decade ! Please give the “recall probes”, at the very least, a prominent button instead. Perhaps you could drop the extra icons near the bottom of the window that only have a mouse-over response showing stats on probes with big windows and lots of text that lists any possible ship and equipment attribute, skill and probably booster that may affect those stats.
    In other words: your new Photon probe scanner window is not practical.
  3. the directional scan window has very small heights for both sliders (distance and angle) at the bottom, and are anything but easy to get hold of with a mouse cursor. Please make them “fatter”. There is enough deadspace in that window to make that possible.
  1. The security status colors are not informative. A scale that starts with dark blue (against a dark sky, very poorly visible) and ends with dark “burgundy” (against a dark sky, not really visible at all), without a visibly recognizable progression along the gradient from 1.0 to -1.0 ? Perhaps visibility and the use of bright colors may seem old-fashioned but they are efficient. The new colors don’t even register when looking at them: you could easily replace them with shades of grey and have similar information - or lack thereof… Please get rid of these new colors and replace them with the old ones. We like our routes and map interfaces readable and practical - it helps save our ships and clones.
  2. Overall the Photon UI is merely a reshuffling of functions, to mess with muscle memory. You allowed the visual aspect to dominate the practical side. Often used functions are hidden in new places. For instance, there was no good reason to give the bookmarks a new place and a separate hotkey. Instead of two hotkeys (one for the People&Places, one for the local bookmarks) we are now required to memorize three.
  3. I’m curious as to what type/kind of screens would require anything that isn’t in “compact mode” ?!
  4. And why would I want to see actual drone pictures in the drone interface window when I already have enough issues to manipulate those tiny icons for launching that only show up when you mouse over certain lines ?! Yes, they can be switched off, thank bob.
  5. The rightclick windows could use a “compact mode” of their own. My apologies if I missed it…

In conclusion:

  • There is a bit of a mismatch (in the most British of senses) between logic and practicality on the one hand and the layout/grouping/functionality of screen elements on the other hand. This visual and practical aspect of the Photon UI was not designed by persons who have more than a few hours worth of e.g. combat flying.
  • Was it all worth it ? You interface designers at ccp still don’t know how to use color as information. You prefer more clicks (we don’t), more black borders (we hate it when we can’t cram enough information on our windows), you even shortened the list of colors to pick for the interface dressing. Why ?
  • Some interfaces like the skin preview (must be the top example …), the fitting window, are horribly inefficient in terms of putting data on the screen, notably the lists on the left collapsible panels. Cosmetics take precedence over efficiency and data density per square centimeter or inch of monitor surface.
  • The non-sensical left panel on the character screen, the one that should collapse when you want to use the screen efficiently, is still the one that stays on when using the collapse panel function (the relevant data disappears, the ugly mug, home station, total value data - utterly useless for any purpose by itself - stays on. Really ?!

Ending on a positive note: the replacement of the infamous red dot with a discrete golden line is worth getting at least a few extra months of omega ! Now THAT was a nice surprise, worthy of EvE and CCP. Along the same line, the tab highlights (blinking) in a chat stack, with the same discrete golden line, priceless, elegant, efficient.

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Final (for now) feedback on the current state of photon.

First off, the GOOD way to fix photon UI:

Roll it all the way back to the design brief. Start over. This time, when your design brief says something in clear unambiguous language like “more consistent window style and layout” don’t find a way to handle that aspect even worse than the old UI. Actually do the thing your new UI is explicitly meant to be doing to improve things. You shouldn’t need a “compact mode” option for users to enable to get basic functionality out of their UI. It should just work properly, at least as well as the old UI does, for the things which it’s important for the UI to be able to do. Simple things, for example, like actually having proper visibility on inventory space and the items in it. Hiding functional elements of the window to make the poor design of other elements less negatively impactful isn’t how you fix the fact that your new UI is objectively worse than the old one at a really important part of gameplay. It’s how you escalate the problem by adding new ways for it to be worse than the old one without fixing the problem. Starting over would let you avoid the screwup that made you think breaking it worse was a good idea.

But since that’s obviously not going to happen, a breakdown of the current state of photon:

One big complaint about photon in its previous iteration was that compact mode was removing necessary functionality. An example present for every single compact mode window was the absence of close and minimise buttons. This one part of this feedback has been addressed. That’s a tiny little baby step in the right direction. It’s nowhere near enough of this problem addressed to warrant pushing the photon UI live again in its current state. It wasn’t ready to go live again, even just based on this problem, which you’ve only addressed the most basic of surface level elements of. The inventory screen still hides important information when you switch it to compact mode. Only when you’re using a fairly small inventory window does the hiding of this information actually make a meaningful difference to the amount of information you can see in photon compared with the old UI. It hides necessary information without removing any of the wasted space in the non-hidden parts of the window. Similarly, the drone window actively wastes more space and has an objectively worse layout than the old UI by default, and compact mode removes functional elements of the window without fixing most of the problems which are actually wasting all the space and causing it to be harder to use. Bring back the old layout and spacing for these windows and others, and you won’t need to add compact mode to fix a problem that shouldn’t be there in the first place.

As mentioned in my explanation for why the current iteration of photon should just be scrapped and the UI design started over, I mentioned that there was a stated goal of a more consistent UI design. Photon doesn’t even come remotely close to providing consistency. The old UI isn’t very consistent in its window design, but it’s a LOT closer to it than photon is. being consistent with the style of UI elements is a good thing. Your design brief makes it clear you know that, so ACTUALLY BE CONSISTENT WITH YOUR UI DESIGN instead of doing what photon is doing. When you’re not just failing at a stated goal to improve the UI, but failing so hard you’re making that aspect of the UI worse than the already not very good state of the current UI, that’s a sign that you’re trying way too hard to make things look different instead of caring about keeping what works.

On the topic of keeping what works, the old UI has dividing lines between columns in every window where such an interface element makes sense. This makes those elements of the UI much easier to read and avoids a lot of problems. Removing those lines serves no purpose, impairs readability of the information shown, and can be harmful in some cases. If you really think this objectively stupid choice is something to be proud of, you can add it as an option (bring back the objectively better old UI’s use of this element as the default) which users can enable if they want to compromise their game’s functionality or think causing physical pain to their friends is funny.

Wasted space in the UI is still a problem. Of particular note, even though you’ve added window margin size to the settings screen, this doesn’t actually fix the problem of window margins being obnoxiously large. The header text is still too large, so even if the “compact” option was actually as compact as the old UI’s margins, you’d be wasting more space for no benefit. And the “compact” setting is still too much wasted space in the margins, in addition to not fixing any of the wasted space between lines and between items in grid view UI elements like the inventory window.

Making the currently-active window more distinctively indentifiable is a good step in the right direction, but the way this has been done in photon comes with more problems than it solves. Making all inactive UI elements a flat single colour means it’s harder to judge which tab is active in any window with multiple tabs. This is less problematic in windows where the different tabs have such different appearance from one another than it’s easy to see at a glance without the UI making it obvious, but there are some windows where this isn’t the case. Most noteworthy is a window around which significant amounts of the core game experience is built: the chat window. Not being able to tell which chat channel is visible when it’s not the current active window is a massive design flaw. This is similar in its degree of stupidity to the removal of the close button from windows in compact mode. Mistakes of this scale should never have even been considered as a possibility because of how obviously stupid they are on their face. Screwing up this way is a sign that whoever’s designing your UI hasn’t been taught the most basic of UI design principles. If they’ve never taken a beginner UI design course, you should probably have them do that. If they did take one, you should probably have them explain to their teacher that the lesson they got was less useful an education on UI design than if they hired a Korean fisherman to translate a Sanskrit manuscript into English without knowing a single word in either language, get their money back, then take an actual beginner course in UI design so they’ll come out of it knowing better than to subject your customers to something like the photon UI again.

Also related to the chat window, if you get a message in a chat channel, and that channel isn’t the active tab or if it’s the active tab for the window but the chat window isn’t the active window, the channel header flashes to show that you have a new message. No matter what, this always happens in the properly-functional UI. With photon, if your cursor happens to be hovering over the channel header at the time the message is sent, it never flashes, and if you move your cursor across the header for the channel while it’s flashing, it stops, either preventing you from even having the possibility of seeing, or hiding the useful reminder that the channel has new information. This is just as stupid as the stupidest of other mistakes, but has the mitigating factor of being more plausible that it could have been done by mistake and overlooked, rather than chosen as an intentional design choice that makes the UI objectively worse because the person doing UI design shouldn’t be doing UI design.

So in summary, my opinion of photon has improved compared with the previous time it was forced onto users, but it’s still such a huge mess it seems like it would be more practical to scrap it and start over than to keep working with what you’ve got and try to fix it. You should probably consider doing that.

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I am concerned as an investor that CCP keeps wasting money on projects like Proton. I personally would like to see new ships and reworks of old ship designs, such as get rid of all the asymmetrical ships because if you actually applied physics to those ships they would just spin in space.

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As much as I don’t personally like asymmetric designs as much, that’s not actually how physics works. Most asymmetric designs in EVE have properly designed asymmetric thrusters to balance their movement out. They should turn faster in some directions than others, though, and don’t, so you still kinda have a point.

It would be great if scrollbars didn’t introduce a bunch of unnecessary dead space on things like chat windows and grouped icons in space:
eg1
eg2
eg3
eg4

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This would be better and more uesful if the scroll bars were wider and the dead space was removed. Like not the full width of the dead space but maybe double what they are in photon (so more like the old UI’s size, where they’re big enough to be useful) and with maybe cut the space on the left down to what’s on the right, after expanding half the width in each direction.

It’s kind of surprising how much of this is stuff that was better looking, more functional and more information dense without feeling as overwhelming as the new UI does.

The density of information in the UI is a necessary feature for EVE gameplay, not something to “fix” to try and make the game “less overwhelming” - changing it the way photon does is how to make the game worse for overwhelming new players, not better. It means you have to take multiple layers of additional - and now also different - actions to get anything done.

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Keep preaching the good word, Brother!

Fantastic post, and I hope CCP puts in the effort to read it and take it to heart.

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Just a collection of issues from the last patch for record keeping:

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